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Post by nomuse on Nov 19, 2005 14:10:36 GMT -4
I just don't know if I can keep going on this.
We are fighting not just lack of scientific knowledge, but a basic understanding of "how things work." I am not sure how someone can survive these days, operate a computer and get online, without having ever encountered concepts such as "solenoid valve" or "terminal velocity." What can you say to someone who thinks fasteners, containers, inflated tires, et al have to be "perfect, no leaks" or they can not be used? Or who thinks radiation can turn corners? Or who believes highly-skilled test pilots working with experienced engineers and space scientists couldn't anticipate any of the simple problems he suggests?
My apologies if I'm out of order. I think we are slipping backwards.
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Post by Moon Man on Nov 19, 2005 19:50:58 GMT -4
Dave et al, weight was an issue with NASA. Why would they add a 14 hour lithium hydroxide canister when they know they can only do a maximum 8 hour EVA..?
Each astronaut used one canister on each walk. There were therefore 6 canisters on board creating 8 pounds or so extra needless weight to the LM and Saturn Rocket. This extra weight, 1 point whatever pounds per canister, was also required to be needlessly carried around by the astronauts on each EVA.
Please don't give a lame excuse like it's only a faction of that in 1/6 gravity.
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Post by tofu on Nov 19, 2005 20:02:09 GMT -4
But think about what you're saying....
It's a hoax because they took extra O2? But if they didn't have any O2, then you would believe we went to the moon? Really? Come on! The truth is, if they didn't take extra O2, then you would say *that* is proof that it's a hoax. We can't win with you.
I can provide evidence of the above statement:
The lander has four legs. You said that is evidence of a hoax. You said that if it was real NASA would have used more than four legs just to be safe.
So with the lander, you say, "because there was no margin of error, it must be a hoax"
But with the O2, you say, "because they wasted space to give a margin or error, it must be a hoax"
You're just jerking people around. I again call for you to be banned so that we can spend the next several months making fun of you.
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lonewulf
Earth
Humanistic Cyborg
Posts: 244
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Post by lonewulf on Nov 19, 2005 20:02:12 GMT -4
Because it's better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it? That's the most "common sense" responce, I don't know the details. I can make fun of Moon Man for months without him being banned
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Post by scooter on Nov 19, 2005 20:19:06 GMT -4
Dave et al, weight was an issue with NASA. Why would they add a 14 hour lithium hydroxide canister when they know they can only do a maximum 8 hour EVA..? Each astronaut used one canister on each walk. There were therefore 6 canisters on board creating 8 pounds or so extra needless weight to the LM and Saturn Rocket. This extra weight, 1 point whatever pounds per canister, was also required to be needlessly carried around by the astronauts on each EVA. Please don't give a lame excuse like it's only a faction of that in 1/6 gravity. There were priorities in weight, life support no doubt being near the top. The weight of that extra LHO2 was deemed worthy of the extra safety cushion it allowed. We're talking small weight here, unnoticable to the astronauts during EVA ...yes, 1/6 their earth weight (no excuse, just fact). Do you find your pants heavy? NASA made a decision to provide the extra scrubber capacity, at minimal weight penalty, and that's it. Just because we don't always understand the "whys" doesn't mean it didn't happen. Keep swinging... Dave Dave
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Post by Obviousman on Nov 19, 2005 20:30:04 GMT -4
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Post by Moon Man on Nov 19, 2005 20:31:59 GMT -4
I'll await a better answer. That one didn't cut it Dave. They would not add a 14 hour LIOH canister, which was disposable after each use, when the oxygen tanks only provided a 8 hour maximum supply. It's not believable.
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lonewulf
Earth
Humanistic Cyborg
Posts: 244
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Post by lonewulf on Nov 19, 2005 20:40:49 GMT -4
"If /I/ ran the zoo, I'd feed the lion only once a day; after all, that's all they need to survive"
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Post by ottawan on Nov 19, 2005 20:41:11 GMT -4
Did you even look at Obviousman's link?
You post a reply for no fricken' reason.
READ the link posted for your edification (look it up) and reply.
Please!!!
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Post by scooter on Nov 19, 2005 20:52:23 GMT -4
You don't believe it so it can't be true? This isn't evidence, not is it proof of anything, except yhat you don't know the motivations behind those making the decisions. Is it possible they made decisions that don't agree with your thinking? Or mine? Quite likely... So the crew carried 6 LH2 to the surface in the LM. 3.12 lbs each, which equates to about 8oz on the moon, x6=3lbs total lunar canister weight. I suppose the question would be, what would be the weight of a 7 hour canister vs the longer duration version? Quite likely not much less, as the structural weight of the canister is a significant portion of the total weight. Your quibbling over ounces, the canister weight was minimal considering their criticality. There were other places on the LM that they chose to shave weight off. If push came to shove, they'd leave a small rock behind. The scrubbers were very important, I don't see a great mission wrecking weight penalty here.
Dave
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Post by Obviousman on Nov 19, 2005 20:55:49 GMT -4
Did you bother to read about how the PLSS was recharged?
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Post by Obviousman on Nov 19, 2005 21:04:04 GMT -4
Gee, Moon man - you're being "smoked" on every single point you raise.
Why don't you just quit while you are behind? ;D
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Post by Moon Man on Nov 19, 2005 21:06:14 GMT -4
I read that link prior to making my first submission. You can see the details from that link in my first post. From another link I had it describes the weight or hour supply prior to the increases that were made for Apollo 15 on, as described at the bottom of your link.
Dave, if these canistered carried an unneeded extra 8 pounds or so then it's still 8 extra uneeded pounds in the Saturn rocket on earth.
When a issue is unexplainable the average ABer goes back to the handwaving if I ran the zoo defence. It's not believble that they would carry weight that is not needed.
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Post by scooter on Nov 19, 2005 21:53:33 GMT -4
From Obviousman's link on the PLSS...
"...To support the more ambitious exploration plans for Apollo 15 through 17, the PLSS operational lifetime was doubled to 8 hours. The changes made to the PLSS were:
Oxygen capacity: Pressure in the primary oxygen bottles was increased to 1430PSIA from 1020PSIA
Feedwater for cooling: Increased to 11.5 pounds (about 5.2 liters) from 8.5 lbs (about 3,9 liters).
Battery: Capacity increased to 390 watt-hours, from 279 watt-hours
Lithium Hydroxide: canister increased to hold 3.12 pounds of LiOH, up from 3.0 pounds.
Now, whats this about a 14 hour canister? ...do you have some data here? .12 pound increase per canister times 6 is .72 pound, about 12 ounces...total, earth weight. All these weight increases to double the EVA duration, seems a great tradeoff..
Dave.
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Post by tofu on Nov 19, 2005 21:55:04 GMT -4
It's not believble that they would carry weight that is not needed. So, if they do carry a little extra weight for safety, that is "not believble (sic)" On the other hand... To believe they would only use 4 legs (on the LM) is a joke. If one failed to open the mission was ruined. If they don't carry a little extra weight (in the form of an extra leg on the LM) for safety, that is not believable. You are obviously jerking us around. No human could be this stupid.
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