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Post by svector on Jun 25, 2007 19:59:12 GMT -4
If anyone has the software to do this, and the Apollo 15 DVD set, look at DVD4, EVA2, Genesis rock - in particular the footage at 26:10 onwards. One of the astronauts is bagging up a sample near the rover. Sped up to x2 speed, it looks completely unnatural. I have it. I'll take a look and try to post a video for you. Might be interesting to do one at 2x, another at 2.4x and another at 3x.
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Post by gillianren on Jun 26, 2007 3:51:02 GMT -4
Hey, Postbaguk, people saying "ignorance is bliss" are taking the quote out of context in the first place.
Rocky, I said I was done responding to you. However, I must congratulate you on managing to change your mind about something. It's a good sign. I'd really like to know exactly what did it and why nothing we say manages it, but we start where we can, I suppose.
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Post by HeadLikeARock (was postbaguk) on Jun 26, 2007 4:55:58 GMT -4
Hey, Postbaguk, people saying "ignorance is bliss" are taking the quote out of context in the first place. The full quote comes from a poem (I forget the author):- "Where ignorance is bliss, tis folly to be wise." This phrase in common vernacular has become shortened to "Ignorance is bliss", and I agree the meaning has changed somewhat, but in subtle way. I think most people have an appreciation of what is meant by "Ignorance is bliss", hence also "Ignorance is NOT bliss". If I've got this wrong, please let me know as I have no wish to remain blissful in my ignorance!
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Post by Jason Thompson on Jun 26, 2007 5:11:06 GMT -4
It looks like there isn't much horizontal movement after all. I guess I was looking at it wrong. I guess you all are going to have a field day over this. I deserve it. I don't think we'll have a field day. We will thank you for admitting your mistake, however. Now that's a different argument, and one we've had before here with you. Since the behaviour of the dust after it leaves the ground is determined solely by gravity then speeding it up will make it appear as if in higher gravity. However, the footage doesn't just include things affected by gravity. The Apollo record is replete with examples of movement that looks absurd at double speed, so the argument fails there. And we still haven't resolved the lack of atmosphere in your argument either.
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Post by HeadLikeARock (was postbaguk) on Jun 26, 2007 5:28:22 GMT -4
If anyone has the software to do this, and the Apollo 15 DVD set, look at DVD4, EVA2, Genesis rock - in particular the footage at 26:10 onwards. One of the astronauts is bagging up a sample near the rover. Sped up to x2 speed, it looks completely unnatural. I have it. I'll take a look and try to post a video for you. Might be interesting to do one at 2x, another at 2.4x and another at 3x. Cheers SV. The footage is also on the ALSJ here, around the 2:40 mark:- www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a15/a15v.1455628.rmWhen sped up to x2, the astronauts arm and hand movements look completely unrealistic, especially when he's tapping the Hasselblad to get some dust off it.
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Post by gillianren on Jun 26, 2007 5:37:12 GMT -4
The full quote comes from a poem (I forget the author):- "Where ignorance is bliss, tis folly to be wise." This phrase in common vernacular has become shortened to "Ignorance is bliss", and I agree the meaning has changed somewhat, but in subtle way. I think most people have an appreciation of what is meant by "Ignorance is bliss", hence also "Ignorance is NOT bliss". If I've got this wrong, please let me know as I have no wish to remain blissful in my ignorance! Thomas Gray. "On a Distant Prospect of Eton College." He's well worth reading, if you get the chance. Gray was certainly not trying to imply that ignorance was always bliss. However, sometimes, it is. Rarely. But, for example, it does you no good to know sordid details of your significant other's past. In that case, it's foolish of you to go track down meaningless information.
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Post by HeadLikeARock (was postbaguk) on Jun 26, 2007 6:06:06 GMT -4
Thomas Gray. "On a Distant Prospect of Eton College." He's well worth reading, if you get the chance. Gray was certainly not trying to imply that ignorance was always bliss. However, sometimes, it is. Rarely. But, for example, it does you know good to know sordid details of your significant other's past. In that case, it's foolish of you to go track down meaningless information. You know what, I think I prefer the whole unadulterated quote anyway!
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Post by gwiz on Jun 26, 2007 7:11:07 GMT -4
Rocky, I admire your courage in admitting you were mistaken after such a long argument. Perhaps in future you might consider that you could be wrong about other aspects of Apollo (or for that matter 9/11) where you have been saying "It looks to me..."
Will you also admit that we were the ones looking at the rover video "objectively"?
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furi
Mars
The Secret is to keep banging those rocks together.
Posts: 260
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Post by furi on Jun 26, 2007 7:40:47 GMT -4
Yup all we need to analyse the trajectory, is the mass of the and exit vectors of the particles, taken from a fixed frame of referance, preferably at a resolution and Frame rate that allows individual grains to be tracked,
Throw a Hand full of something anything, they do not all land in the identical spot, these are MANY trajectories not a singular,
Wouldn't the Clumping also be due to the same much discussed reason why lunar soil can take an imprint as well, I was under the impression that clumps of soil tend to lose their integrity when thrown throw the atmosphere, through a mixture of Drag and Centrifugal force (even ruddy great clay sods as well) I have not yet ever looked at the sand and spray blowing across the shore and watched it Clump due to atmospheric pressure (or clump at all)
as for the speed question with the rover, I take it therefore that there ar more powerful motors and power cells on the rover. to allow it to move at 2x speed not to mention different suspension to cope with the weight difference, as for the walking I personally think it looks normalat 2x speed only if you where running down quite a steep bank and allowing gravity and inertia to propel you forwards in an out of control run, as I doubt I could propel myself forward with such a small impact. also does all footage from each mission look normal at speed or just the odd segment?
now what happens if you run the film at the speed required to simulate objects falling under gravity correctly does it still look natural. besides even if it appears to be correct (acceleration would appear Lunar or Terran based on the speed) that does not prove a hoax, it proves that video can be made to appear under differing gravities by changing the speed,
I take it the speed of the Colour seperated video is something you can explain laong with electronic sensitivity Relative frame rates, transmission frequency power and bandwidth of antennas and all the other tiny little things that would need to be changed, like the rover power system if it where filmed on earth.
So far it would have been better if they were commiting a hoax to not bother with the rover, Technical difficulties or some such excuse.
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Post by Mr Gorsky on Jun 26, 2007 9:45:01 GMT -4
... But, for example, it does you know good to know sordid details of your significant other's past. In that case, it's foolish of you to go track down meaningless information. You mean no good, presumably? Sorry, Gillian, just couldn't resist.
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Bob B.
Bob the Excel Guru?
Posts: 3,072
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Post by Bob B. on Jun 26, 2007 11:41:03 GMT -4
It looks like I have to eat my words on this one. … It looks like there isn't much horizontal movement after all. I guess I was looking at it wrong. Good, congratulations on changing your mind. I still think it was filmed on earth though because of this video that shows the rover footage played at double speed. This is a useless argument. If you are just looking at the ballistic trajectory of something, then yes, slowing down a video of something filmed on Earth by a factor of 2.46 will make it appear like ballistic motion on the Moon. Inversely however, if you speed a video of something filmed on the Moon by a factor of 2.46 it will appear just like ballistic motion on Earth. Saying one looks like the other is an obvious consequence of changing film speed and provides us no useful information. Either explanation can describe what we see, thus to deduce which is correct we must look for other evidence. All the other evidence points to the explanation that the video was filmed on the Moon. For instance, the lack of dust clouds, the unnatural movement of the astronauts’ arms and legs when the film is sped up, etc.
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reynoldbot
Jupiter
A paper-white mask of evil.
Posts: 790
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Post by reynoldbot on Jun 26, 2007 14:33:28 GMT -4
rocky, haven't I aksed you a few times already to think about how realistic it would be for the astronauts to have been running around at top speed for hours to satisfy the double speed argument?
Only short clips of astronauts jumping or running look even remotely realistic when sped up. Take any clip showing astronauts using tools or fumbling with sample bags and you will see how unrealistic it looks.
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rocky
Earth
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Post by rocky on Jun 26, 2007 14:35:30 GMT -4
Do you really think a few scientists couldn't come up with a way to make sand dust-free?
Post an example of this. The only examples of sped up footage I've seen are on the video I posted and the movemonts looked natural. Not all the footage was necessarilly played at half speed. Scenes where they are just standing and working with their hands were probably not played at half speed so they will look unnaturally fast when played at double speed.
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reynoldbot
Jupiter
A paper-white mask of evil.
Posts: 790
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Post by reynoldbot on Jun 26, 2007 14:41:45 GMT -4
...except that many of the shots are long, extremely long single shots encompassing many activities, including astronauts running and jumping as well as working with with their hands. You can even find short clips showing the astronauts running and then working with their hands. It doesn't work. It can't be both things at the same time in the same shot.
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reynoldbot
Jupiter
A paper-white mask of evil.
Posts: 790
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Post by reynoldbot on Jun 26, 2007 14:44:14 GMT -4
...unless you are arguing that the entire event was so precisely choreographed that they knew exactly when to speed up and slow down the footage live and in real time with NO single moment where the transition could be detected. Including when the astronauts fell down or tripped or dropped bags or spilled samples or anything else that was unpredictable.
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