|
Post by turbonium on Jul 10, 2005 7:51:38 GMT -4
OK, nobody likes JFK talk - why, I don't know.
Does anybody care about their financial situation? Does anyone here have an Economics background?
If so, this would be the place for talking about "The Big Banks", namely the Fed and The Bank of England.
Privately controlled , and the scam of all time, here for the benefit of very few people..
|
|
|
Post by martin on Jul 10, 2005 9:29:31 GMT -4
Does anybody care about their financial situation? I think you know the answer to this question. Does anyone here have an Economics background? Yes. If so, this would be the place for talking about "The Big Banks", namely the Fed and The Bank of England. Privately controlled , and the scam of all time, here for the benefit of very few people.. In the US, governors of the federal reserve are appointed by the president and confirmed by congress. The federal reserve system is a favourite villien of libertarians, except for the libertarian who is now chairman, and the libertarian who will probably become next chairman. Bank of England did not have power to stand up against George Soros for two days in 1992. You do not talk about ECB or Bank of Japan. Are these scam also, or not? Martin
|
|
|
Post by turbonium on Jul 10, 2005 9:49:27 GMT -4
Is fractional reserve banking not a scam to you? Are those who continue to run and permit it not villains to you?
|
|
|
Post by martin on Jul 10, 2005 10:22:34 GMT -4
Is fractional reserve banking not a scam to you? Are those who continue to run and permit it not villains to you? Maybe it is helpful if you can describe what kind of system you like to replace by the current system in US and UK. Also, if you think Bank of Japan and ECB are scams also. I have criticisms for both banks, but when some one is saying they are a "scam," I like to know the exact meaning of this person before I can agree or disagree. I do not know how a bank with a board of governors and chairman chosen by the government is privately controlled. They have much greater degree of independence than other government agencies, but I do not call this private control. If people permittng this system are villiens, these people are citizens of US and UK. I am not citizen of either country, and I do not think these people care if I say they are villiens or not. For some time, the govermnment of US thinks I am a villien, but they do not think this any more, it seems... Martin
|
|
|
Post by Joe Durnavich on Jul 10, 2005 21:04:01 GMT -4
Is fractional reserve banking not a scam to you?
Fractional reserve banking is not a scam if the bank operates prudently. I think that a central banking system, like the one in the US, discourages banks from being prudent, however. Putting our money supply completely in the hands of the government places it under political control rather than economic control. Politics tends to inflate the money supply, which in effect, becomes another form of taxation. By inflating the money supply, government siphons some of your hard-earned money from your bank account.
I think we would do better to go back to privately owned banks in a free banking system where reserves are backed by something of real value like gold that cannot be inflated (or deflated) easily. Based on historical performance, bank liquidity would be higher, fractional reserves would not be so fractional, and savings would have a better chance of retaining their value over time.
|
|
|
Post by martin on Jul 10, 2005 22:32:08 GMT -4
Is fractional reserve banking not a scam to you?Fractional reserve banking is not a scam if the bank operates prudently. I think that a central banking system, like the one in the US, discourages banks from being prudent, however. Putting our money supply completely in the hands of the government places it under political control rather than economic control. Politics tends to inflate the money supply, which in effect, becomes another form of taxation. By inflating the money supply, government siphons some of your hard-earned money from your bank account. I think we would do better to go back to privately owned banks in a free banking system where reserves are backed by something of real value like gold that cannot be inflated (or deflated) easily. Based on historical performance, bank liquidity would be higher, fractional reserves would not be so fractional, and savings would have a better chance of retaining their value over time. I do not think liquidity will be higher if we have a gold standard... You are right that inflation is a tax, because currency does not pay interest. But for elimination of this tax, what else will government do? Does it reduce spending, increase other taxes, or have a smaller surplus or larger deficit? Effect of elimination of this tax depends on what other action takes place. Also, effect on value of savings also depends on equilibrium changes in interest rates as a result in currency changes. A particular issue for US is that much of this tax is paid by foreigners, because many countries have reserves in US dollars. This is effectively banking service US provides to rest of the world, for a fee... Martin
|
|
|
Post by turbonium on Jul 11, 2005 1:49:25 GMT -4
The gold backed currency was better than our current system, but still places almost all the control in the hands of the super wealthy who already own most of it. It's a very limited supply commodity.
Based on American history, at least, colonial scrip and later Greenbacks (Linclon initiated) were the most successful systems of currency introduced. Because they were not in the hands of a few privately run banks, they were not subject to interest owed to anyone.
The Gov't of today is near to 6 trillion dollars in debt - to who? 40% to the Federal Reverve, most of the rest to the other Central Banks!! That is why I am saying that the Fed is private - the Gov't cannot be obligated to repay money and interest to itself, if it is the CREATOR and ISSUER of currency!! It is not - the Fed creates the currency backed by nothing, lends credit to the Gov't to be payed back with INTEREST! What sane system of currency would ever do this?
All the ever increasing taxes don't even come close to paying down this debt. The National Debt has continued to increase an average of $1.64 billion per day since September 30, 2004!
|
|
|
Post by PeterB on Jul 11, 2005 2:11:38 GMT -4
Is fractional reserve banking not a scam to you? Are those who continue to run and permit it not villains to you? What's fractional reserve banking? For what it's worth, here in Australia, the current Liberal (politically conservative) government has managed the impressive feat of bringing unemployment down from about 8% to 5% while keeping interest rates down, and also delivering an average 14% increase in real wages, all since 1996.
|
|
|
Post by turbonium on Jul 11, 2005 3:33:21 GMT -4
Hi peter, The basic definition is... A banking system in which only a fraction of the total deposits managed by a bank must be kept in reserve. The amount of the deposits equals the amount of the reserves times the deposit multiplier (reserve ratio - deposits to reserves). This means the banks are only legally required to keep as deposits a fraction of the money they lend out (1 dollar for every,say 10 dollars, for example they lend out). I've linked here a primer on fractional reserve banking from an Australian site for you (Australia has the same dreaded system as US, England, Canada, etc). www.leithner.com.au/circulars/circular79.htmThe below text is from the link at bottom, showing that the system is a scam and is fraudulent, as it could never even meet its legal requirements if actually carried out.. Even though it details the Federal Reserve, the exact same principles are in place around the world, including Australia. Fraud #1. Paper Money. Originally, a paper dollar was a paper promise, a contract, to pay in gold or silver. The issuers of dollars have defaulted on that promise numerous times in recent history, at a rate of about once per generation. The issuers of paper money defaulted on domestic gold redemption in 1934, defaulted on silver redemption in 1968, and defaulted on international gold redemption in 1971. Those who issue U.S. paper money (Federal Reserve Notes) are in default. The creation of paper money is fraud, and was used to steal away gold and silver from the hands of the people.
Fraud #1 (A). Unchecked Borrowing and Printing of more Paper Money. All paper money is borrowed into existence, and that does not make the excessive creation of paper money right. This fraud is an additional theft upon all people who are already deceived by holding onto the fraudulent dollars, instead of gold and silver. The total amount of money in the U.S. banking system is known as M3, and is almost $9 Trillion as of Jan., 2004.
See: www.federalreserve.gov/releases/h6/Current
Fraud #2. The Debt of the U.S. Federal Government. Originally, this debt was incurred to a large degree to fight and win World War II, as the debt soared from under $50 billion to over $250 billion by the war's end. This was fraud, however, because at the time, the U.S. was on a gold standard at $35/oz., and the U.S. never borrowed $250 billion worth of gold in the first place, we only borrowed paper money that was created to excess. The debt is primarily used as a means to hide the fact of the excessive creation of paper money. By the end of Feb, 2004, the debt can be rounded up to $7.1 Trillion, and is as fraudulent today as it ever was.
See: www.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opdpenny.htm
Fraud #3. Fractional Reserve Banking. Banks don't even have the fraudulent paper money they say you have in your account. They say you have "on demand" deposits, but they loan deposits out long term, which is fraud, because you cannot demand your deposits when you want. You have to order cash in advance, which your bank will have to order from the Fed, if you take out more than a few thousand dollars, and sometimes they will not even provide such a "service" of giving you your money, but will only give you a cashier's check.
What are the fractional reserve requirements? In June of 2001, it was $37 billion for the entire U.S. banking system.
See: tinyurl.com/aetno
In June of 2001, M3 was $7605 billion.
See: www.federalreserve.gov/releases/h6/hist/h6hist1.txt
Therefore, in total, the reserve requirement was 37/7605, or .49%, or less than half of 1%.
The reason why it is so low is that for the first $6 million of deposits at a depository (your local branch) the reserve requirement is zero. Then, for the next $6 million to $45 million, the amount is 3%. Then, for amounts larger than $45 million, it is 10%.
See: tinyurl.com/cxhzl
Therefore, since the vast majority of deposits are small ones, the effective reserve requirement is close to zero, or that 1/2 of 1%.
Fractional reserve banking is fraud, because those reserves cannot simultaneously be used to pay out to depositors and be used to back up the rest of the deposits at the same time. If more than 1/2 of 1% of people took their money out of the banking system, the system would collapse, unless the banks were willing to go to the Federal Reserve (the lender of last resort) and borrow more paper money. www.federal-reserve.net/majorfraudsoftheusmonetarysystem.htm
|
|
|
Post by martin on Jul 11, 2005 3:41:23 GMT -4
The gold backed currency was better than our current system, By what criteria? Is "our" system the American system? Banking crises were very common in the 19th century in America. but still places almost all the control in the hands of the super wealthy who already own most of it. It's a very limited supply commodity. Then it sounds to me like your complaint (concentration of wealth) does not depend on system of currency... Based on American history, at least, colonial scrip and later Greenbacks (Linclon initiated) were the most successful systems of currency introduced. Because they were not in the hands of a few privately run banks, they were not subject to interest owed to anyone. The Gov't of today is near to 6 trillion dollars in debt - to who? 40% to the Federal Reverve, If this is the US government, the debt is more than $7 trillion. But you are correct, approximately 40% of the debt issued by the US government is held by the US government itself. most of the rest to the other Central Banks!! That is why I am saying that the Fed is private - the Gov't cannot be obligated to repay money and interest to itself, if it is the CREATOR and ISSUER of currency!! The public pension system in the US has run a surplus for many years, and lends the surplus to the general budget, which promises to repay with interest. Does this mean the social security administration is a private organisation? It is. - the Fed creates the currency backed by nothing, lends credit to the Gov't to be payed back with INTEREST! What sane system of currency would ever do this? If any debt is repaid to the federal reserve, the interest does not really matter, because it is paid from one part of the government to another. Governments have different agencies, which have financial transactions between them. Corporations have different divisions which make financial transactions (many times to transfer profits from countries with high tax rates to countries with low tax rates). I wrote myself a cheque a few days ago to deposit in another account. This does not mean I am two different people. All the ever increasing taxes don't even come close to paying down this debt. The National Debt has continued to increase an average of $1.64 billion per day since September 30, 2004! And this is because of the federal reserve system? I think it is because the government spends more money than it receives in taxes. Because the US has a fiat currency, it can print more money to finance a deficit, and the result is inflation. Current policy of US government is not to do this. If it increases taxes or decreases spending to create surplus, then the debt is reduced and eliminated one day if the government maintains this policy. Federal reserve system actually helps (but only a little), because as some one else is saying here, creation of money and inflation is a tax. If they do not do this, then the deficit is larger. Martin
|
|
|
Post by turbonium on Jul 11, 2005 3:54:19 GMT -4
Martin - you don't have to owe interest if you are using your own money!! Unless you have multiple personalities!
Think about it - the taxpayer is paying taxes to pay down interest on a debt it never needed to have in the first place!!
How can a child be born today and be already thousands of dollars in debt? It's ridiculous. Read up on the details I linked so you can understand it a little better.
|
|
|
Post by martin on Jul 11, 2005 6:24:37 GMT -4
Martin - you don't have to owe interest if you are using your own money!! Unless you have multiple personalities! Governments do have multiple personalities. I already asked if you think the social security administration of the US is a private organisation also, and you did not answer. Just think, George Bush does not have to privatise it, because by your logic it is already private. Think about it - the taxpayer is paying taxes to pay down interest on a debt it never needed to have in the first place!! Governments have debt because the spend more than they tax. This is the same reason people have debt, they spend more than they earn. I already explained this. What does this have to do with fiat currency? How can a child be born today and be already thousands of dollars in debt? It's ridiculous. Having a lot of debt may be bad policy. It may even be ridiculous. Maybe it is even as ridiculous as thinking that central banks are not part of the government. Read up on the details I linked so you can understand it a little better. I doubt I will ever understand it as badly as you. Martin
|
|
|
Post by martin on Jul 11, 2005 6:39:22 GMT -4
Is fractional reserve banking not a scam to you? Are those who continue to run and permit it not villains to you? What's fractional reserve banking? The banking system does not maintain reserves equal to the value of deposits. Years ago, many countries had a gold standard, so each unit of currency was backed by gold, and the banking system maintain reserves equal to the full value of deposits. Not many countries do this any more. But the disinformation about how the federal reserve of the US is a private organisation is just rubbish. It is part of the government, like every other central bank. The US still used a gold standard years after creation of the federal reserve. For what it's worth, here in Australia, the current Liberal (politically conservative) government has managed the impressive feat of bringing unemployment down from about 8% to 5% while keeping interest rates down, and also delivering an average 14% increase in real wages, all since 1996. I had this problem when I came to the US, "liberals" here are all against liberalism. When some one tells me he is a liberal, I thought the opposite of what he is meaning for a while.... Martin
|
|
|
Post by jaydeehess on Jul 11, 2005 9:05:15 GMT -4
Canada , with a similar system as the USA has and is paying down it's debt. This illustrates that it is possible to do so. When the present administration in the USA is replaced with one that will take the debt seriously then something may happen there as well. In the mean time GWB spends like a drunken sailor while talking a good game about fiscal responsibility.
However all of that is politics.
|
|
|
Post by martin on Jul 11, 2005 9:33:31 GMT -4
Canada , with a similar system as the USA has and is paying down it's debt. This illustrates that it is possible to do so. When the present administration in the USA is replaced with one that will take the debt seriously then something may happen there as well. In the mean time GWB spends like a drunken sailor while talking a good game about fiscal responsibility. However all of that is politics. The current level of debt of US government is not bad by standards of industrial countries. But it is growing fast, and will get worst due to pension and medical programs in future years. But many countries of Europe are in even worst shape. In US, it seems like immigration is more accepted than in many countries of Europe, so this can help US. The European Union has limits on the budget deficits of member countries, but France and Germany are violating for years with no penalty, so this is no good sign... But I know many people who work in the US federal reserve and in the ECB, so probably I am part of conspiracy ;D ;D ;D Martin
|
|