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Post by twinstead on May 5, 2006 11:03:23 GMT -4
Europium sounds like something one might use to relax while in Amsterdam.
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Post by feelfree222 on May 5, 2006 19:54:05 GMT -4
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Post by Bill Thompson on May 7, 2006 23:42:23 GMT -4
So you and grimmer think they had been planning this since '93 LOL. I asked for a reference to thermite being used in demolition, I'm still waiting. Just because a solar energy researcher says it can be used that way doesn't mean it's true. What was the objective of the first WTC attack in 1993? Obviously ,bringing down the towers with a maximum of victims inside if they have succeeded,right? You can find many interesting things about why the FBI did nothing to stop the 1993 WTC attack even if it was informed and many more... www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread39089/pg1I think the fbi might have wanted to wake the world up to go to war with Islamafacism. Maybe. I am not big on consparacy theories.
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Post by Bill Thompson on May 7, 2006 23:45:34 GMT -4
This may be a little OT.
But maybe it isn't if you read between the lines...
I have been trying ever since 9-11-2001 to understand how Al Qaeda works and how they thing. The only sense I could make of them was in thinking that they did not really want to kill "America" but to really kill "Americana". The real enemy was what was in the hearts of a lot of westerners and that is the rule of self determination and the persuit of happiness. It was this culture and this mindset that is the enemy to Al Qaeda. What I think they wanted to achieve on 9-11 was an image sent throughout the world. They wanted people to turn on their televisions and see a split screen life news footage of three events: the world trade center burning; the pentagon burning; and the us capitol burning. But what they really wanted to crush was something greater. They wanted to crush the faith people had in Americana.
But it did not work out as they had planned.
The aircraft blasting into the world trade center tore away the flame retarding compounds off the metal support beams and this lead to the building falling. THe dramatic image was not of Americana being brought to its knees but rather thousands of people from all over the world dying.
Also it has come to light that the plane intended to fly into the US Capitol building had passengers who fought back. Not only did they fight back but they did so after they had waited for the planes to be flying over unpopulated areas. This does not make Americans look bad. This makes Americans look good.
On top of this, it has been reported that Osama bin Laden has said that the difference between his followers and the west is that the west loves life and his people love death.
So now I wonder if they are all just crazy and stupid.
With the trial of Mouisaui over it is interesting to notice that he is claiming victory. He must be stupid to think he has won a victory. Also his defense brought up the fact that he has mental problems and does not see reality.
So I wonder if this is true and if this is the simple case with all of these people.
And since you did not understand this, maybe you are in this boat as well. Are you?
You cannot compare 9-11-2001 with Hiroshima or Dresden. Each day the war in the 1940's waged on thousands of slaves held by the Japanese Empire did. Each day the Nazis were in powere thousands of people died in death camps in Eurpoe. On 9-11, Al Qaeda was not acting to free any such people. Al Qaeda is a multinational criminal organizaton not supported by any state government.
So I ask you. Are they just crazy and stupid?
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Post by feelfree222 on May 8, 2006 0:16:09 GMT -4
So I ask you. Are they just crazy and stupid? So you are not so sure Bin Laden and Mouisaui have the brain to prepare these attacks? Maybe the real question is : were they simply used by the FBI or the CIA for achieving a Machiavelian plan?
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Post by PhantomWolf on May 8, 2006 3:30:09 GMT -4
OBL is neither stupid nor crazy, he's a zealot. There was a very interesting documentary on Saudi Arabia on here resently. One of the people they interview was a man who used to be OBL's best friend, and brother-in-law. He fought beside him in Afganistan and only returned to Saudi after the Taliban took over. He talked about the man he knew and what he was about. OBL sees those that don't follow his beliefs as infidels. He sees them as unholy and believes that he is doing Allah's will to attack and kill them. He sees the presence of unbelievers in Saudi Arabia as a desecration of the holy lands and he won't stop until no non-muslim walks in muslim lands. While some of it is the westification of the Islamic nations, most of it is what he sees as interrferance in the affairs of the Islamic nations, the west telling them how to live and what to do. He finds this outrageous as infidels should not be instructing muslims how to live. He also sees tha western countries as guilty of killing muslim women and children about the world, though especially in operations such as Somelia and during Gulf War 1, though the tensions reach back as far as WW1 and before. It seems that beyond this, the US and British support of Israel is also a major factor. This is the mindset. That the West has been at war abnd killing Muslims for centuries, and now he feels that he has the right to return that death onto the western countries. Starting by attacking embassies and miltary targets such as bases and ships, the WTC was a target because or it's symbolism to the US and the World. The Pentagon was a target because it was the head of the US military and thus by default resposible for the death of those muslims killed by the US military. Obviously the White House was a target because it was the head of the US Government.
This is not madness, it is cold and calculated revenge by a zealot. It may seem strange to us, but to a people who are brought up to believe that it is only right and honourable to die while destroying one's enemies, the mindset is one towards sacrificing the individual to achieve the goals of the manys. To them, live is easy to give up as they see it as a way to be granted eternal life in Allah's garden. For them, death as a matyr is preferable to life. This is not stupidity, it is fanatasim, and that is what has to be fought. Don't mistake their actions for stupidness, or for craziness. They understand what they are doing, but their belief in what is to come drives them on with out the fear of death that pervades the Western world.
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Post by gwiz on May 8, 2006 3:32:47 GMT -4
I note that it's not OBL who is giving up his life, he is obviously too valuable to the cause so has to get others to do it instead.
He's definitely not stupid. Can't say the same for said followers.
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Post by PhantomWolf on May 8, 2006 3:35:53 GMT -4
heh. My Mum keeps saying the same thing gwiz. It's never the leaders out there blowing themselves up.
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Post by bazbear on May 8, 2006 12:37:26 GMT -4
With the trial of Mouisaui over it is interesting to notice that he is claiming victory. He must be stupid to think he has won a victory. Also his defense brought up the fact that he has mental problems and does not see reality. I don't believe Mouisaui really feels he "won" anything. It seems pretty likely, based on his testimony, that he wanted to be put to death. I'm glad that jury didn't give him the martyrdom he so wanted.
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Post by ktesibios on May 8, 2006 13:09:40 GMT -4
I don't believe Mouisaui really feels he "won" anything. It seems pretty likely, based on his testimony, that he wanted to be put to death. I'm glad that jury didn't give him the martyrdom he so wanted. In ten years the loony with the unspellable name is going to be nothing but the answer to a trivia question that noone but crime buffs will know. That seems quite fitting to me.
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Post by Bill Thompson on May 8, 2006 16:59:27 GMT -4
So I ask you. Are they just crazy and stupid? So you are not so sure Bin Laden and Mouisaui have the brain to prepare these attacks? Maybe the real question is : were they simply used by the FBI or the CIA for achieving a Machiavelian plan? No, this is not clear thinking, if you don't mind me saying so. Anyone, any child, any crazy person, or any idiot, can break something. This is not the behavior of an intelligent person. 9-11 was no act of genius. If you set out to destroy you will reach your goals. In fact, 9-11 was pretty poorly planned and the targets they picked were of little statigic significance.
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Post by Bill Thompson on May 8, 2006 17:04:16 GMT -4
OBL is neither stupid nor crazy, he's a zealot. There was a very interesting documentary on Saudi Arabia on here resently. One of the people they interview was a man who used to be OBL's best friend, and brother-in-law. He fought beside him in Afganistan and only returned to Saudi after the Taliban took over. He talked about the man he knew and what he was about. OBL sees those that don't follow his beliefs as infidels. He sees them as unholy and believes that he is doing Allah's will to attack and kill them. He sees the presence of unbelievers in Saudi Arabia as a desecration of the holy lands and he won't stop until no non-muslim walks in muslim lands. While some of it is the westification of the Islamic nations, most of it is what he sees as interrferance in the affairs of the Islamic nations, the west telling them how to live and what to do. He finds this outrageous as infidels should not be instructing muslims how to live. He also sees tha western countries as guilty of killing muslim women and children about the world, though especially in operations such as Somelia and during Gulf War 1, though the tensions reach back as far as WW1 and before. It seems that beyond this, the US and British support of Israel is also a major factor. This is the mindset. That the West has been at war abnd killing Muslims for centuries, and now he feels that he has the right to return that death onto the western countries. Starting by attacking embassies and miltary targets such as bases and ships, the WTC was a target because or it's symbolism to the US and the World. The Pentagon was a target because it was the head of the US military and thus by default resposible for the death of those muslims killed by the US military. Obviously the White House was a target because it was the head of the US Government. This is not madness, it is cold and calculated revenge by a zealot. It may seem strange to us, but to a people who are brought up to believe that it is only right and honourable to die while destroying one's enemies, the mindset is one towards sacrificing the individual to achieve the goals of the manys. To them, live is easy to give up as they see it as a way to be granted eternal life in Allah's garden. For them, death as a matyr is preferable to life. This is not stupidity, it is fanatasim, and that is what has to be fought. Don't mistake their actions for stupidness, or for craziness. They understand what they are doing, but their belief in what is to come drives them on with out the fear of death that pervades the Western world. This is very interesting and informative. I sincerely thank you for taking the time to post it. No joke.
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Post by jaydeehess on May 9, 2006 0:41:32 GMT -4
Planning a hijacking is not rocket science, planning 4 hijackings on the same morining requires an ability to read flight schedules and is not rocket science, piloting an aircraft that is already in the air and trimmed for cruise isn't rocket science , flying said aircraft into the tallest thing on the horizen isn't rocket science, flying said aircraft into a very distinctive shaped building surrounded by lawns and parking lots and lying next to a bend in a large river isn't rocket science.
Suggesting that Muslim extremists which have in the past both hijacked aircraft and used suicide attacks against their enemies, planned 4 hijackings and used the aircraft in suicide attacks, is not suggesting that Muslim extremists must be familiar with rocket sciences.
BTW feelfree, since English is not your first language, "it isn't rocket science." is an English phrase meaning that a great knowledge is not required.
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Post by feelfree222 on May 9, 2006 1:19:14 GMT -4
Planning a hijacking is not rocket science, planning 4 hijackings on the same morining requires an ability to read flight schedules and is not rocket science, piloting an aircraft that is already in the air and trimmed for cruise isn't rocket science , flying said aircraft into the tallest thing on the horizen isn't rocket science, flying said aircraft into a very distinctive shaped building surrounded by lawns and parking lots and lying next to a bend in a large river isn't rocket science. Suggesting that Muslim extremists which have in the past both hijacked aircraft and used suicide attacks against their enemies, planned 4 hijackings and used the aircraft in suicide attacks, is not suggesting that Muslim extremists must be familiar with rocket sciences. BTW feelfree, since English is not your first language, "it isn't rocket science." is an English phrase meaning that a great knowledge is not required. Thanks for the precision. Of course they are not genious ... they dont even realised they were manipulated to serve other interest than Islam .
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Post by jaydeehess on May 9, 2006 13:51:26 GMT -4
Planning a hijacking is not rocket science, planning 4 hijackings on the same morining requires an ability to read flight schedules and is not rocket science, piloting an aircraft that is already in the air and trimmed for cruise isn't rocket science , flying said aircraft into the tallest thing on the horizen isn't rocket science, flying said aircraft into a very distinctive shaped building surrounded by lawns and parking lots and lying next to a bend in a large river isn't rocket science. Suggesting that Muslim extremists which have in the past both hijacked aircraft and used suicide attacks against their enemies, planned 4 hijackings and used the aircraft in suicide attacks, is not suggesting that Muslim extremists must be familiar with rocket sciences. BTW feelfree, since English is not your first language, "it isn't rocket science." is an English phrase meaning that a great knowledge is not required. Thanks for the precision. Of course they are not genious ... they dont even realised they were manipulated to serve other interest than Islam . So now you are saying that the terrorists were indeed on the flights, did indeed hijack the planes and crash them into the buildings but they were allowed to do so by TPTB. So why continue with the nonsense of preplanted incendiaries and explosives when crashing 4 aircraft into symbols of American power was already accomplished? (handwaving alert)
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