9/11: Secret Service

[bpd1069]

I would like some comments regarding the behavior of the US Secret Service on the morning of 9/11/2001.

The odd behavior of the Secret Service is intriguing as they are the group of men and women charged with the protection of the office of the President of the United States.

The President's visit to an elementry school in Florida was published days before, he location was known to all who wanted to know.

Soon after the second plane impacted with the South Tower in NYC(9:03am), it was evident to everyone that the US was under a coordinated attack using multiple hijacked planes as weapons. It is important to note that the exact number of hijacked planes could not have been known at the time of the second impact.

My question is simple, why did the Secret Service wait until 9:30am, to pull the President out of the school. How could they have determined that the President was not a potential target? Why did they endanger the lives of hundreds of school children?

[PhantomWolf]

What were they supposed to do, dive over the top of him in case one of the children was really a terrorist with a bomb in their backpack?

Seriously. A school is a hard target to find from the air, not like the primary targets, and the primary targets were planned years in advance, not a few weeks. Second even if it had been targeted, any attack would have got the kids anyway so they weren't endangering them by staying put in a secure location. Thirdly, there weren't any planes headed in that direction so they were reasonable sure that they weren't under attack themselves. Fourthly, a change of plans means that the route has to be organised, motorcades need to be set up for a fast get away and that the plane has to be readied, that all that's time. Remember they weren't just sitting there waiting to go incase something happened, they were expecting the President to be a while. Finally, eyewitness reports of the motorcade to the airport once it left and the plane taking off left no doubt to the fact things were hurried. The air controller has said on record that he didn't believe a plane could get off the ground as fast as Airforce One did that day.

In the end the action they took was right. There was no clear and present danger to the President and so they made arrangements to get him from the area hastily, but not in such a way as to further panic people or to cause a breach in his security.

Compare this reaction to that of agents in the area were there was a known threat. They evaccuated the Senate and White House memebers from D.C and even physically carried a number of the people to move them faster. Why? because there was a direct danger to them, a plane was headed their way.

[bpd1069]

Your kidding right? Actually according to a news report with one of the teachers there were Agents in the trussess above the classroom. You must not realize how much these agents, don't take chances. Snipers were reported to be on near by roofs.

Ah the school was 8 miles from a local Airport. Small but known to the SS which does a threat assessment of any place the President goes in advance.
Keep in mind it was an unknown enemy, with unknown hijacked planes.
How is being outside of his bulletproof/bomb resistant limo being in a secure location?

Let me restate, the Secret Service control a situation, if they cannot control an area, they move to an area that can be controlled.

The FAA did not issue the order to ground all planes until 9:25am.

I know you are just shooting from the hip and all, but please read up on the facts first.

[twinstead]

bpd1069 you are using hindsight as an aid to your argument, as well as the famous "I think they should have done that, and they didn't, so it must be some kind of plot" technique.

Basically it's total conjecture shoehorned into a predisposed theory after the fact. Yea, conjecture is fun, but it certainly is not a replacement for real evidence.

[Al Johnston]

phantomwolf said:

What were they supposed to do ... ?

Tear up white sheets to make a big arrow and an Arabic sign saying "This way" ? ;D

[frenat]

Whenever the President flies somewhere, he is accompanied by an AWACS and fighter escort. Add to that that a school is not nearly as easy to identify from the air as the WTCs or the Pentagon. Many times the airspace above his location is made a temporary no-fly zone enforces by the AWACS and fighters. The SS agents may not have wanted to scare the children, they may have thought the President would be safer where he was. It is easy to second-guess their decisions after the fact but it does not necessarily mean what they did or did not do was wrong.

But think about it from another angle. If Bush and his SS agents were in on it, then why wouldn't he have had them rush him off right away? Surely his pr people would know that would look better. What purpose would it serve to leave him there?

[bpd1069]

Its not conjecture nor hindsight. It is making note of the extremely unusual behavior of the Secret Service.

The President arrived in FL the day before I believe, there were no AWAC and F-16 buzzing over the school.

I don't think the Secret Service factor in scaring school children while considering whether to protect the Office of the President of the United States, while the country is 20 minutes into a surprise attack by an "Unknown" enemy, using atleast 2 757's as weapons. The skies of the US had hundreds if not thousands of commerical aircraft aloft.

So are you trying to tell my the Secret Service is incompetent aswell? No a very strong argument.

And an aircraft traveling at 500mph can fly 50 miles before a single F-16 is scrambled (6 minutes). The No Fly Zone would not have protected the President. To state the Secret Service didn't think the school could be hit via a plane is not so strong, as that seems to be the only protection offered as of yet.

You must look at it from the understanding that at that moment 9:03. No one could have known the extent to which this surprise attack was being run. No one except those that had knowledge of the attack before hand.

[PhantomWolf]

You are assuming that an attack in NY consitutes a viable risk to the President in who is in Florida, it simply doesn't. Had they been told that there was an aircraft heading in their direction, I'm sure they would have reacted as those in DC did, but as you stated, the ground was covered by agents on rooftops and throughout the school. Where was the immediate danger? There wasn't one. Unless you can show that they should have had reasonable conserns for the immediate safety of the President, then they acted correctly. They were in a secure location. It had been checked out and was surrounded by officers who would have been in position to stop a ground attack, there was no sign of an air attack. Having the presidential motorcade stuck in traffic because the route hadn't been cleared puts him in a much more dangerous situation.Until you can show that there was information that they should have acted on, they did what was correct. By the way, I'm not just shooting from the hip on this, it's been discussed here a number of times, and there have been documentaries that have talked to the agents in involved and the people that were there at the time. None of them have a problem with the way the service handled it.

[echnaton]

The Secret Service agents did not remove him from the school because that was not their decision to make as there was no immediate threat to his life. The Service’s job is to provide physical security, and at that time they had no information to suggest that he was in physical danger. The political people are there to protect him from the political danger he was in, and they were the people whose thoughts should have most guided the President's actions. Service agents focus on their assignments and trust the systems in place to make good decisions. The agents on the spot would not have made that kind of decision because they were not in a position to know what was going on away from the school. They would have continued to do what they were supposed to do, guard the President.

[bpd1069]

I see others are using the benefit of hindsight to put forward the assertion that the Secret Service determined the office of the President of the United States was not under a threat.

Also to revisit the idea that they did not have an escape route planned before the visit to the school. There is always an escape route planned before any presidential visit. To state that one needed to be put in place as events were happening is naive, at best.

The Secret Service plan for nearly every contingency, scope out the area where the president will be, they even enlist the aid of local authorities in identifing individuals that may pose a threat. This is routine. In cases where there is no contingency, say like a surpise attack using 757's as weapons, you remove the potential target to an undisclosed location.

The skies above every state in the US had numerous commerical (and private) planes in flight at that time. Each one was a potential Hijacked plane/ or soon to become one, hence the FAA grounding of all Air Traffic in the US at 9:25am. The FAA assessed the threat.

Why didn't the US Secret Service?

[bpd1069]

twinstead said:

bpd1069 you are using hindsight as an aid to your argument, as well as the famous "I think they should have done that, and they didn't, so it must be some kind of plot" technique.

Basically it's total conjecture shoehorned into a predisposed theory after the fact. Yea, conjecture is fun, but it certainly is not a replacement for real evidence.

I agree that one cannot accurately assess the actions(or lack) of an individual, as individuals will react differently to every situation.

But we are not discussing the actions of one individual, but a rigid, and highly trained group of individuals whom operate as a one unit. There actions are not determined by free will, but by policy, regulations, etc.

This is percisely when you can examine their actions "after the fact" to determine what is out of character.

[echnaton]

bpd1069 said:

I see others are using the benefit of hindsight to put forward the assertion that the Secret Service determined the office of the President of the United States was not under a threat.

Also to revisit the idea that they did not have an escape route planned before the visit to the school. There is always an escape route planned before any presidential visit. To state that one needed to be put in place as events were happening is naive, at best.

The Secret Service plan for nearly every contingency, scope out the area where the president will be, they even enlist the aid of local authorities in identifing individuals that may pose a threat. This is routine. In cases where there is no contingency, say like a surpise attack using 757's as weapons, one can not assume threat is localized to NY State. The skies above every state in the US had numerous commerical (and private) planes in flight at that time. Each one was a potential Hijacked plane/ or soon to become one, hence the FAA grounding of all Air Traffic in the US at 9:25am. The FAA assessed the threat.

Why didn't the US Secret Service?

My experience working with Service agents on political events is that they are very focused on the physical surroundings of the person they are guarding. They go to pains to be unobtrusive and will never give directions on how an event should be run, that is all taken care of beforehand by the advance teem. It is undeniable that there was no threat to the President. So there was no need to take any action.

The security is not as air tight as you seem to think it is. It always does include the security sweeps, frequently the snipers on the roof, and sometimes searches of people working near by. You would be amazed the number of times I was less than 100 feet from former president Bush, a foreign head of government, or been in a car with a high level official without having been checked by magnetometers. On the other hand I have been checked and double checked other times, seemingly at random. Sometimes the bomb dogs would check cars in a motorcade, sometimes not. Much of the security takes place before an event in prescreening participants, nearly every time I worked on Bush’s trips to Houston, I would have to resubmit copies of my drivers license and social security card. Occasionally a Service agent would come talk to a group of volunteers. You knew what he was really doing when you watched his eyes, looking of potential trouble. My observation of the actual body guard protection that the Service provides is to protect from a lone gunman the advance people take care of the planed conspiracy.

Just playing “if I ran the zoo” with the Secret Service doesn’t mean that because they don’t meet your expectations then something sinister was going on.

[echnaton]

bpd1069 said:

This is percisely when you can examine their actions "after the fact" to determine what is out of character.

Do you have any expertise with how the Service behaves “in character”? Care to tell us what that expertise is? I would hardly call myself an expert but I bet I have more experience working with and observing the Service operate than you do.

[jaydeehess]

The FAA assessed the threat.

Why didn't the US Secret Service?

They did and came to the conclusion that there was no identifiable threat to the President.
The attacks took place in the northeast, Bush was in the south east. The attacks were on very large, easily identifiable from the air, targets. A low rise school building is not either of those.

Furthermore where would they be running Bush off to? Most definatly NOT Air Force One which IS readily identifiable and would be at a very large, easily found airport. What's more , IF an aircraft had been hijacked specifically to target AF1 there would be nothing particularily suspicious about an aircraft approaching an airport.

Now consider what it would mean IF you are correct and the Secret Service should have but did not bother to remove GWB from the school. It means that the Secret Service knew of the attacks in advance and thus that the POTUS was in no danger. It means that even the Secret Service personel assigned to GWB had to know this and not just higher ups. You have just increased the number of people who must know of the plot or be able to deduce it, by a couple of dozen lower level agents.

IF the Secret Service was indeed 'in on it" and SOP would require that GWB be moved immediately then in order for all appearances to remain normal they would have moved him regardless of whether or not he was in any danger. So what are you then saying, that they did not move him because they were lazy?

[twinstead]

So what are you then saying, that they did not move him because they were lazy?

yea, all those slovenly, lazy, good for nothing secret service agents...

it's a wonder more presidents haven't been assassinated throughout history.