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God
Dec 3, 2005 8:41:48 GMT -4
Post by ouloncollouphid on Dec 3, 2005 8:41:48 GMT -4
I don't like the word 'atheist' as it usually implies some sort of militant viewpoint and that there is a set of beliefs of some kind involved. But surely this God stuff is all nonsense isn't it? Belief in The Bible is no more reasonable than belief in Ovid's Metamorphoses or Norse Sagas. (Or, indeed, to use the old analogies, Santa Claus, pixies or leprechauns.) This guy puts it pretty well (warning: quite long articles). He does get a bit militant and angry but his points are mostly valid. And the final few paragraphs of the second piece are quite beautiful. brentrasmussen.com/log/node/363brentrasmussen.com/log/node/364
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God
Dec 3, 2005 10:48:17 GMT -4
Post by Retrograde on Dec 3, 2005 10:48:17 GMT -4
and that there is a set of beliefs of some kind involved. Well, disbelief is a particular form of belief, is it not?
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Al Johnston
"Cheer up!" they said, "It could be worse!" So I did, and it was.
Posts: 1,453
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God
Dec 3, 2005 14:12:06 GMT -4
Post by Al Johnston on Dec 3, 2005 14:12:06 GMT -4
"That would be an ecumenical matter!"
To borrow a phrase ;D
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God
Dec 3, 2005 18:22:26 GMT -4
Post by Retrograde on Dec 3, 2005 18:22:26 GMT -4
"That would be an ecumenical matter!" To borrow a phrase ;D Drink! Feck! Arse! Girls! ;D ;D
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God
Dec 6, 2005 21:25:05 GMT -4
Post by snakeriverrufus on Dec 6, 2005 21:25:05 GMT -4
I think the point he is raising is that he simply does not fit the mold of what many people view an atheist to be. Welcome to life. " if you claim not to believe in God, you must believe in satan" are those the kind of thing you are talking about?
posted by ouloncollouphid But surely this God stuff is all nonsense isn't it? Belief in The Bible is no more reasonable than belief in Ovid's Metamorphoses or Norse Sagas. (Or, indeed, to use the old analogies, Santa Claus, pixies or leprechauns.)
this tends to be my view but I don't feel the need to convert any one. A person can have all the faith that they want. As long as they do not try to push their faith on me or bring 'intelligent design" into the classroom.
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God
Dec 6, 2005 21:51:12 GMT -4
Post by PeterB on Dec 6, 2005 21:51:12 GMT -4
KOS said:
Not necessarily.
When it comes to belief in deities, there's the strong atheist position, which asserts the non-existence of the deity.
Then there's weak atheism/strong agnosticism, which doubts the existence of the deity. That where I place myself. I don't actively assert the Christian God doesn't exist, because I have no firm proof. I simply say that I doubt He exists because I haven't seen any evidence that he does. In the same way, I doubt the existence of other gods.
What Ouloncollouphid points out is a useful question to ask strongly religious people. These people have no difficulty being atheist about other gods, but cite strong personal reasons for believing the existence of the god they worship.
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God
Dec 6, 2005 23:07:16 GMT -4
Post by Retrograde on Dec 6, 2005 23:07:16 GMT -4
Then there's weak atheism/strong agnosticism, which doubts the existence of the deity. That where I place myself. OK, I think we're just different a bit on terminology. By "disbelief," I meant affirmative, certain disbelief, not uncertainty
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God
Dec 7, 2005 7:55:01 GMT -4
Post by gwiz on Dec 7, 2005 7:55:01 GMT -4
Well, disbelief is a particular form of belief, is it not? To slightly misquote the piece linked in the OP, if atheism is a belief then not collecting stamps is a hobby.
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God
Dec 7, 2005 19:37:45 GMT -4
Post by ouloncollouphid on Dec 7, 2005 19:37:45 GMT -4
KOS said: Not necessarily. When it comes to belief in deities, there's the strong atheist position, which asserts the non-existence of the deity. Then there's weak atheism/strong agnosticism, which doubts the existence of the deity. That where I place myself. I don't actively assert the Christian God doesn't exist, because I have no firm proof. I simply say that I doubt He exists because I haven't seen any evidence that he does. In the same way, I doubt the existence of other gods. ... I have trouble with the atheist/agnostic distinction. I think either you believe or you don't. There is no meaningful distinction to be made between the two statements: 'I don't believe God exists' and 'I believe God doesn't exist' . To mak a generalisation, the person making the statement does so for the same reason, that he is not satisfied by the evidence that a supernatural being exists. If he makes the statement from a 'belief' or 'faith' that God dosn't exist, then he is a strange exception and not a typical 'atheist' at all. 'agnostic' is just a word for those who don't believe but who are nervous of the word 'atheist' largely because of its militant overtones and their misconception that you need to subscribe to some sort of alternative belief-system. Probably because the presence of '-ism' at the end of the word. This is why I dislike the word and don't consider it a useful term for discussion of the subject. Everyone is agnostic. None of us know for absolute certainty.
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God
Dec 7, 2005 20:31:54 GMT -4
Post by Fnord Fred on Dec 7, 2005 20:31:54 GMT -4
However, some of us have faith in the existence/nonexistence of God.
If you asked a theist if God exists, he'll say "Yes." If you asked an atheist: "No." If you asked an agnostic: "I don't know."
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God
Dec 7, 2005 21:14:05 GMT -4
Post by echnaton on Dec 7, 2005 21:14:05 GMT -4
An atheist friend and I used to refer to an agnostic pal as a lapsed atheist.
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God
Dec 7, 2005 21:28:54 GMT -4
Post by snakeriverrufus on Dec 7, 2005 21:28:54 GMT -4
An atheist friend and I used to refer to an agnostic pal as a lapsed atheist. I use the term "fallen atheist" ;D
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God
Dec 8, 2005 1:18:56 GMT -4
Post by LunarOrbit on Dec 8, 2005 1:18:56 GMT -4
To me "agnostic" means "I can't prove God exists, but I can't prove he doesn't either". I can't say with 100% certainty that there is no God, therefore I can't consider myself a true atheist. It's not a matter of not being able to decide what I believe, it's a matter of believing that it's impossible to prove that God does or doesn't exist.
I don't go to church or worship any higher power, so in that sense I am like an atheist, but I will never say with 100% certainty that there is no God (even though I may suspect it).
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God
Dec 8, 2005 5:09:29 GMT -4
Post by Tanalia on Dec 8, 2005 5:09:29 GMT -4
I prefer to look at it the same way as James Randi. From his weekly newsletter available at The James Randi Educational Foundation, this article (near the bottom): Strictly speaking, agnostic just means "can't know for certain." However, different people use it to try to cover anything from the "Atheist of the Second Kind" as described in the quote to "I'm pretty sure there's something but it's not like any organized religion I'm familiar with" -- which means the term has become too vague to be very useful; if you have to define what you are trying to say, just say the definition...
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God
Dec 8, 2005 13:14:25 GMT -4
Post by ouloncollouphid on Dec 8, 2005 13:14:25 GMT -4
To me "agnostic" means "I can't prove God exists, but I can't prove he doesn't either". Well, that's everyone, isn't it? I'd be very curious to meet someone who can prove it either way.
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