Jason
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Post by Jason on Jul 5, 2006 17:42:24 GMT -4
I'm also concerned about the dangers of TM. I've read a bit about TM practitioners who become violent, have hallucinations, and commit suicide, among other unpleasant things From what I gather from the Wikipedia entry and its links (admittedly not a very reliable data source) it involves sitting with your eyes closed and chanting a mantra for twenty minutes twice daily. I have a hard time believing that sitting and chanting for forty minutes a day are going to make you more violent, hallucinate, or commit suicide. I would think the most likely detrimental side effect would be a horse voice.
The mantras chanted seem to definitely be religious in nature, however, which would make the practice of TM equivelent to religious worship, and thus something that shouldn't be introduced to US public schools.
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Post by echnaton on Jul 5, 2006 18:00:42 GMT -4
TM has about as much to do with science as Intelligent Design. No mater how they spin it, my children will not study TM at school.
I've read a bit about TM practitioners who become violent, have hallucinations, and commit suicide, among other unpleasant things.
I’ve read of plenty of Christians doing these things.
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Jason
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Post by Jason on Jul 5, 2006 18:11:32 GMT -4
You shut up about how we Christians are violent and see things that ain't there and suicidal, echnaton, or I'll kill yah! You and that purple bunny sitting next to you! And then just to show you I mean business, I'll kill myself! Yeah, that'll show yeh!
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Post by PhantomWolf on Jul 5, 2006 18:33:46 GMT -4
I’ve read of plenty of Christians doing these things.
echnaton, I know you were merely trying to reverse the point on DeadHoosiers, but remember that there are many Christians on this board, including people such as Jay, and that sort of attack is fairlty offensive to more than your original target.
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Jason
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Post by Jason on Jul 5, 2006 18:59:22 GMT -4
I'd like to think that echnaton was making the point that all sorts of ridiculous things are written about nearly every religion by its critics, and that such criticisms should be taken with a grain of salt, in which case I agree with him. Of course, according to Dead Hoosiers in another thread I'm not a real Christian anyway, so I guess I have nothing to worry about.
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lenbrazil
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Post by lenbrazil on Jul 5, 2006 21:00:39 GMT -4
b lenbrazil: DH you seem to have reading comprehension problems. It was stated that TM was being taught at a private college not in public schools Well, one of us does at any rate. I was responding the original post where PW stated "...On the radio I am listening to a guy from the US who is introducing Transcendental Meditation inrto Schools in the US." OK? I stand corrected. My apologies. The quote feature however exists for a reason - to let others know exactly what you are responding to. I did some Googling and it appears that TM is being introduced in some schools, it is supposedly being done without it1s religious context, but I have my doubts can you have one without the other? I don't know enough about TM to say I agree that TM like other religious activity has no place in public schools, DH what do you think about ID being taught in them? If you approve of the latter justify this apparent discrepancy Len
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lenbrazil
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Now there's a man with an open mind - you can feel the breeze from here!
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Post by lenbrazil on Jul 5, 2006 21:05:40 GMT -4
I’ve read of plenty of Christians doing these things.echnaton, I know you were merely trying to reverse the point on DeadHoosiers, but remember that there are many Christians on this board, including people such as Jay, and that sort of attack is fairlty offensive to more than your original target. I'm not a Christian but I don't think I woukd have taken offence if I was. His point as I understood it was that members of ALL faiths are capable of violence.
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Post by echnaton on Jul 6, 2006 10:45:47 GMT -4
The intention of my remark was to highlight DH’s statement as a attempt to insert these rumors of violence into the discussion. This is a very dangerous technique that can be used to divide people and set one group apart.
I choose Christians as an example because I am one, although my participation in discussions here are infrequent enough that my affiliation may not be known. You are right PW, to single out another group would be offensive. As a Christian, reminding DH that all Christians are sinners and subject to the same failings as all other humans is not intended to cause offence.
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Post by Dead Hoosiers on Jul 6, 2006 14:05:14 GMT -4
b lenbrazil: [ I agree that TM like other religious activity has no place in public schools, DH what do you think about ID being taught in them? If you approve of the latter justify this apparent discrepancy Len I object to any religious/philosophical beliefs being taught as science, but I would approve of a comparative religion course being taught. We all ought to know something about the religious beliefs of others. If I had anything to say about it, evolution, creationism and ID would be taught there. What bothers me about ID is that some people confuse it with biblical creationism. It can also be used to offer "proof" of a belief so potentially evil that I would be blasted off this board for even mentioning it.
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Post by PhantomWolf on Jul 6, 2006 18:25:21 GMT -4
I choose Christians as an example because I am one, although my participation in discussions here are infrequent enough that my affiliation may not be known. You are right PW, to single out another group would be offensive. As a Christian, reminding DH that all Christians are sinners and subject to the same failings as all other humans is not intended to cause offence.
It's possible I over-reacted a bit too. I get a bit sensitive because there seem to be many people that just like to attack Christianity as often as possible. Since the way I understand Christianity, those that do things against other people really don't fall into a position as a follower of Christ, I get annoyed with the way numerous people use those few that claim to be Christian and then turn around and do hirendous crimes, to bash us.
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Post by Apollo Gnomon on Jul 6, 2006 21:07:16 GMT -4
I'm also concerned about the dangers of TM. I've read a bit about TM practitioners who become violent, have hallucinations, and commit suicide, among other unpleasant things. This is classic "anti cult" propaganda. Homosexuality and comic books are also "demonized" with the same scare tactics. Remember when Dungeons and Dragons was the new big thing? Same nonsense. Just another substitute for thinking. Fact is, some people are unhappy and/or unhealthy for various reasons. Sometimes they are drawn to unusual answers, and when that doesn't fix their lives, sometimes they follow thru on their personal "final solution." Dogfood does not cause fleas. As for "hallucinations" chanting nonsense syllables can't cause them but certain mental illnesses can. TM involves chanting, and chanting just puts your left-brain to sleep, allowing the right-brain to work without the "censorship" of logic and rationality. A mentally ill person needs all the rationality they can get to prevent stuff from leaking out of the dark corners and into primary consciousness. The chants in TM are words that sound exotic and nifty but have no pre-established meaning to the meditator. I can't chant "carbutetor" as a mantra (I tried) because I know what one is and will get distracted thinking about carburetors instead of getting into the "trance" state of wide-awake alpha-wave activity, like dreaming. In zen meditiation, one simply counts breaths, from 1 to 10. The purpose of this is to focus attention on the act and sensations of breathing, not to get into any kind of trance state. I only bring this up to illustrate that "meditation" is not just one thing, but the name of a whole bucket of things. The danger of TM is not that it's crypto-hinduism (hinduism is not intrinsically evil, just weird) but that it appeals to impressionable young people, then lures them away from common sense and daddy's money.
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Post by Dead Hoosiers on Jul 7, 2006 1:31:05 GMT -4
AG: As for "hallucinations" chanting nonsense syllables can't cause them but certain mental illnesses can. TM involves chanting, and chanting just puts your left-brain to sleep, allowing the right-brain to work without the "censorship" of logic and rationality. A mentally ill person needs all the rationality they can get to prevent stuff from leaking out of the dark corners and into primary consciousness.
The chants in TM are words that sound exotic and nifty but have no pre-established meaning to the meditator. I can't chant "carbutetor" as a mantra (I tried) because I know what one is and will get distracted thinking about carburetors instead of getting into the "trance" state of wide-awake alpha-wave activity, like dreaming.
The danger of TM is not that it's crypto-hinduism (hinduism is not intrinsically evil, just weird) but that it appeals to impressionable young people, then lures them away from common sense and daddy's money.You are mistaken. The mantra is always the name of a Hindu god. Even a cursory Internet search would prove to you that many people have suffered due to TM. It took me less than 30 seconds to find just these 2 sites: (discussion board re TM experiences) www.factnet.org/cgi-bin/discus/board-auth.cgi?file=/3/201.htmlThis next link is to a site that promotes meditation and has a section on the dangers of TM, so by their own admission, there are problems. www.kundalini.se/eng/engkni_1024.htmlThere are also books available on the subject if you wish to become knowledgeable. Lastly, the original question had to do with whether or not TM was religion or science. It had nothing to do with whether or not Hinduism is a good religion, nor did I address that subject. I'm modifying this post to add the following link for the interested: www.kundalini-support.com/index-3.html
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Post by Apollo Gnomon on Jul 7, 2006 1:55:34 GMT -4
The name of someone else's god is a set of syllables without meaning to the chanter. Try saying the syllables "apple pie" without thinking about pie. That's what I'm trying to say. Chanting is about stopping the active-thinking processes we are most aware of, the left brain/chattering monkey, so that right-brain processes can come forth.
I'm not trying to defend TM. I'm trying to help you understand the bio/psych science beneath meditation and chanting.
I agree that TM is religion, not science.
Ignoring Hunt and his prejudices, I'll opine that TM is a cult - it lures you in, indoctrinates you, creates an us/them relationship in which everyone not involved in TM is "the Other" and keeps luring you along with promises of more and more. Kind of like the military, or many religions, only more aggessive about recruiting, and with profit motive.
Perhaps you can comment on the differences between "Intelligent Design" vs. "Biblical Creationism" for us in another thread. I personally don't know the difference.
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Post by Apollo Gnomon on Jul 7, 2006 2:02:48 GMT -4
And no, I'm not mistaken. Please don't quote three paragraphs and respond to one word.
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Post by Dead Hoosiers on Jul 7, 2006 2:10:03 GMT -4
The name of someone else's god is a set of syllables without meaning to the chanter. Try saying the syllables "apple pie" without thinking about pie. That's what I'm trying to say. Chanting is about stopping the active-thinking processes we are most aware of, the left brain/chattering monkey, so that right-brain processes can come forth. I'm not trying to defend TM. I'm trying to help you understand the bio/psych science beneath meditation and chanting. I agree that TM is religion, not science. Ignoring Hunt and his prejudices, I'll opine that TM is a cult - it lures you in, indoctrinates you, creates an us/them relationship in which everyone not involved in TM is "the Other" and keeps luring you along with promises of more and more. Kind of like the military, or many religions, only more aggessive about recruiting, and with profit motive. Perhaps you can comment on the differences between "Intelligent Design" vs. "Biblical Creationism" for us in another thread. I personally don't know the difference. I don't know much about left/right brain stuff. What I believe, and you won't like it, is that when a person chants the name of a "god," that god or astral being or whatever you want to call it, sometimes responds. The results can be disasterous, i.e., demon possession. I don't think demon possession is always unpleasant for the victim. If the results were always unpleasant, no one would practice meditation or yoga. These entities can also give pleasant experiences. People think they can control what happens while they're in an altered state, so they keep joining up. I think there's already a thread on the forum about ID. I remember it being discussed. Too tired to check it out right now.
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