|
Post by Apollo Gnomon on Jul 10, 2006 18:24:20 GMT -4
I believe I understand the theory just fine - I simply disagree. Oh! Please, don't get me wrong. I think religion is ALL hogwash, in as non-judgemental of a way as I can. If others will let me believe my nonsense, I'll let others believe theirs. I'm just trying to explain the underlying belief of some of this discussion. Now that I've done a bit more research, I understand where DeadHoosiers' use of the word "perversions" comes into this from.
|
|
Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
|
Post by Jason on Jul 10, 2006 19:02:13 GMT -4
Yes, I think you did make your attitude pretty clear with your "which cloud looks more like a horse" remark on the other thread, and when I look at the Bob Larsons of the world I really can't blame you.
|
|
|
Post by Dead Hoosiers on Jul 10, 2006 19:13:50 GMT -4
I disagree with the idea that someone who doesn't use the correct (Christian) name for God is praying to a demon. I have to disagree with you there. Hinduism is not a monothestic religion--they have literally millions of gods they pray to. It's not as though they are praying to the only God but just call Him by a different name. Same for Muslims. The god they worship is not the same God Christians and Jews worship. Do you believe a person can pray to any entity for even a good reason and have their prayers answered? If so, why was Jesus at such pains to teach His disciples that He was the only way to the Father?
|
|
|
Post by Dead Hoosiers on Jul 10, 2006 19:18:23 GMT -4
I believe I understand the theory just fine - I simply disagree. . . . I understand where DeadHoosiers' use of the word "perversions" comes into this from. Er, actually I was referring to deviant sexual practices being taught to our grade schoolers.
|
|
|
Post by Dead Hoosiers on Jul 10, 2006 19:26:36 GMT -4
I think how it works is this: there is a population of demons, etc. involved in a continuing battle for control of earth and man. It is not so much that demons are wearing pre-existing gods' names and aspects but that the gods are demons. This derives from the writings of Bob Larson and Dave Hunt. c.faculty.umkc.edu/cowande/ccp/larson.htmThe the idea didn't originate with any of the men named in the article. Any Christian could deduce that this is likely true because so many people who pray to entities other than Christ get their prayers answered (as well as become possessed). It just isn't God who is answering those prayers. The devil can work miracles too. And if you're not a Christian you might believe any number of other things explain it.
|
|
Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
|
Post by Jason on Jul 10, 2006 21:58:49 GMT -4
Yes I certainly do. God is a loving being who will listen to the sincere prayers of all His children, no matter if they address Him by the correct name or even believe if He is one of many. After all, it's not the fault of the muslim that he was born in a land where Christian missionaries are forbidden.
Because he is.
It does mean that they must eventually accept him as their savior, as he is the only way to salvation, but salvation and answered prayers are two seperate subjects.
|
|
|
Post by echnaton on Jul 10, 2006 22:45:13 GMT -4
Why am I suddenly recalling discussions about angles and pin heads?
|
|
|
Post by lionking on Jul 11, 2006 4:02:09 GMT -4
I'll tell you what. The christians and the jews don't worship the same God. Jews' God is too harsh and blood thirsty, opposite of the God of Christianity. Go read the Torah.
|
|
|
Post by lionking on Jul 11, 2006 4:07:26 GMT -4
typical of the christian school responses I have learnt in. The devil runs away from truthfulness. If your heart is truthfull, then God looks at it. I have had very difficult prayers answered. At the times I was praying for my ego, the prayers weren't answered. When I prayed honestly for ppl's benefit, not for the sake of revenge, very difficult prayers were answered. Tell me now that it was the devil who did all these to decieve me. Take it as a rule, things that lead to the good of the humans is not devil's work, while the opposite is true.
|
|
|
Post by Dead Hoosiers on Jul 11, 2006 12:21:35 GMT -4
I'll tell you what. The christians and the jews don't worship the same God. Jews' God is too harsh and blood thirsty, opposite of the God of Christianity. Go read the Torah. I don't know how you came by that belief (that we don't worship the same God), but it's not from the Bible. Isn't Jesus the only begotten son of the Father? Didn't He tell people that if they have seen Him they have seen the Father? Didn't He say that "the Father and I are one"? Didn't He refer to Himself as "I AM"? Do you know anything about the doctrine of the Trinity? The OT reveals to the diligent student that the God of Israel is a triune god, not three separate gods. If you had spent any time at all studying the Old Testament you would know the reason for all the judgments and punishments. God wants things done His way. He made a covenant with Israel. They didn't keep their side of the bargain, and to be fair, no one could, due to our fallen nature. God made provision for their failures [sin] through substitutionary sacrifice. What He didn't do was change the rules about what constitutes sin. Above all, He made it clear that He and He alone is God. Can you find even one account of Him answering the prayers of people who didn't even know who He was? What about the Chaldeans in Pharoah's court? How do you account for the fact that they could work miracles yet He sent Moses against them? How about the priests of Baal? Why couldn't they call fire down from heaven?
|
|
|
Post by Dead Hoosiers on Jul 11, 2006 12:24:08 GMT -4
typical of the christian school responses I have learnt in. The devil runs away from truthfulness. If your heart is truthfull, then God looks at it. I have had very difficult prayers answered. At the times I was praying for my ego, the prayers weren't answered. When I prayed honestly for ppl's benefit, not for the sake of revenge, very difficult prayers were answered. Tell me now that it was the devil who did all these to decieve me. Take it as a rule, things that lead to the good of the humans is not devil's work, while the opposite is true. I'd like to see how you respond to my last post. Maybe you'll be able to answer your own question.
|
|
Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
|
Post by Jason on Jul 11, 2006 12:44:14 GMT -4
This idea is one of the reasons your average atheist refers to God as "the invisible sky bully." If God punished Israel for not holding up their side of the bargain, but they were incapable of holding up their side of the bargin then God isn't behaving in a just fashion at all, is he? How can God justly punish someone for not doing something they can't do? There must be something wrong with your reasoning here.
Possible instances:
Balaam was a prophet even though he had no idea who the Israelites were and was at first willing to curse them.
God gave prophetic dreams to Pharoh's butler and baker, as well as Pharoh himself, which Joseph interpreted. Neither the servants nor Pharoh had any idea who Jehovah was.
God called Samuel even though Samuel had no idea who was calling him.
The inhabitants of Ninevah repented of their sins and were spared from destruction when Jonah preached among them. Ninevah wasn't a jewish city.
King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon was given visions of the future from God without knowing Him.
Saul of Tarsis actively persecuted the followers of Jesus but was given a vision that transformed him to the Apostle Paul.
Aren't those two positions inconsistent? On the one hand you say the sorcerors were able to work miracles but on the other the priests of Baal weren't. If demons were helping the Chaldeans then why didn't they also help the priests of Baal?
|
|
|
Post by lionking on Jul 11, 2006 12:49:46 GMT -4
Jesus have never said that he is God. I suggest you read the site of the essenes I put for Kiwi. Who told you the Egyptians didn't have a part in some true mesage.? But there were some wicked religions that sacrificed humans and stuff. these are really wicked and should be thrown away. However, the God of the Old Testament is fought against by the Essenes, whom Jesus originated from. Of course, the idea of the jew god was mixed by the idea of Eil, the Cana'anite God by David and Isaiah. He didn't remain the Yahwe known to the Israelitis, but still... Wondered why Jesus was agaisnt the Pharrisees? bcz he was Essene, and essenes were against the jews and Pharisees, but believed in many of the Torah documents. Those Hindus you arefighting against without taking into consideration the truth behind their religion has many things to share with christianity. read www.ah0.org/books/1569751218_Jesus_and_Buddha_reader_reviews.shtmlsurfe the net. it is full of similarities between Buddhism, that is a "corrective sect" of Hinduism. finally, as Jason said, salvation is another thing than answered prayers.
|
|
Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
|
Post by Jason on Jul 11, 2006 13:07:32 GMT -4
Jesus have never said that he is God. Actually he did say he was the god of the Old Testament. DH already pointed out several of these instances. The most obvious is in John 8:57-58: "57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by." Compare Exodus 3: 13-14: "13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? 14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you." The jews of John 5 recognized that Jesus was claiming to be the I AM of Exodus and attempted to stone him for blasphemy because of it.
|
|
Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
|
Post by Jason on Jul 11, 2006 13:09:44 GMT -4
Why am I suddenly recalling discussions about angles and pin heads? Sorry there echnaton. Once the Bible verses come out the discussion can get a little insular. But I do think that whether or not God answers prayers not properly addressed to him is of at least a little more importance than how many angles may dance on the head of a pin.
|
|