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Post by gillianren on Feb 7, 2007 16:30:57 GMT -4
You know, Bill, I am bipolar.
Temporary insanity happens. We can't predict who it will strike, because different stresses affect different people in different ways.
And yeah. It's possible to reach for help before they reach bottom. It's even best. But we have this attitude toward mental illness in the US that means people are afraid to, which means they just keep getting worse.
Did you know that the nurse practitioner currently prescribing my meds is the only person on the West Coast who prescribes for people without insurance? I can get in to see the therapist at the clinic I attend once a month for fifteen minutes--which is the same amount of time I can see the woman who prescribes my meds. That's not therapy.
When you find out that someone's mentally ill, what's your first reaction? Be honest, not just with me but with yourself. There are some people whose initial reaction is sympathy, and if you're one of those, that's great. That's reassuring; there are very few of those. Most people either don't believe it--it's all in my head, you know--or assume that I'm somehow dangerous, which I'm not, 99% of the time.
When I suggested to someone over on BAUT not long ago that they might consider talking to someone about their personal problems, the reaction was, "I'm not mental! I don't need therapy!" Someone in another discussion referred to the mentally ill as "tards." It's a joke to a lot of people.
I have sympathy for this woman because of my own mental illness. I don't think it would be much of an improvement in the media if an astronaut sought mental health care. Did you know that, in most states, insurance companies don't even have to cover mental health care?
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Post by Bill Thompson on Feb 7, 2007 19:32:26 GMT -4
You know, Bill, I am bipolar. So is my wife. I know it well. And I know many others who are bipolar. Never once have I heard of a case where they put others at risk or threaten other lives. I don't and I speak from years of experience. And there are ways of getting health care depending on what state you are in. We can talk about it offline. Bipolar people have been known to drive 900 miles for no logical reason. But not to kill someone. It does not fit the mold. And, by the way, she would have been grounded from flying jets in the Navy if she was bipolar. And bipolar disorder does not surface for the first time when you are 43 years old.
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Post by gillianren on Feb 7, 2007 20:38:27 GMT -4
So is my wife. I know it well. And I know many others who are bipolar. Never once have I heard of a case where they put others at risk or threaten other lives. You haven't heard much, then. There are times when I am personally a danger to others. Part of bipolar disorder is a condition called "manic rage." The most severe case of it I've ever experienced involved my little sister somehow setting me off--I don't know remember how--and me with my hands around her neck, slamming her head into my mother's bedroom floor. It's true I'm not capable of planning, well, anything in the throes of rage. However, I don't claim to speak for all who are bipolar on the subject. Especially since the mania is a very small part of my symptoms; I'm much more frequently depressed. No, Bill, you don't. Your wife is bipolar, fine. You know what it's like from the outside. But you don't know what it's like from the inside. You can't. You don't know the isolation. You don't know the fear of becoming a total outcast if anyone finds out that you're crazy. I talk about it, a lot, because I'm hoping to make it better for those who come after me. However, I have lost friends over it, and I have no doubt it will happen again. It's not that I've ever lied to anyone about what I'm like; it's that they don't realize what I mean until the day comes when they see me depressed, or angry (very rare; I control it very well), or panicked, or what have you. Normal people don't get it. I'm not going to hide. I need people to see that sometimes, the mentally ill can seem just like everyone else, until all of a sudden, we're not. There are people who dismiss my opinions now, because I'm crazy. I'm still the same me I was before they found that out, but I'm not to be trusted anymore, because now, they know I'm crazy. Yes, there are. I ended up filing for disability, in part because I'm just not stable enough to find a job. However, before, I had no access to health care from the time I lost my job. There was "sliding scale" health care available, but it's nearly impossible to get, and they still would have charged me--and it's money I don't have. Heck, even now, the $20 a session I'd be paying if the state didn't pay it for me is prohibitive, given that my monthly income is $346. That's not true. Frankly, I know someone from ren faire who's very lucky to be alive, given how inclined she is to make me lose my temper. (She thinks it would be healthy for me, because I hold it back.) Bipolar people don't kill others when they're depressed; that's when they kill themselves. However, when they are manic, they can be and often are a danger to others. I have a friend who broke his hand in a manic rage; he punched a wall instead of his girlfriend. Not necessarily. It could be that this recent bout of stress just aggravated it so that she couldn't control herself anymore. And I think it's unjust that bipolar disorder definitely disqualifies you from flying a jet; if your meds work, why not? At any rate, that's kind of my point. She couldn't have sought help, because her life would have been ruined, and then it was too late, because the break was complete. Mind you, I don't necessarily think she is bipolar; there's all kinds of mental illness. In fact, bipolar seems a fairly unlikely diagnosis to me. However, what we should take away from this is not "oh, it's funny!" but "wow; sometimes, everyone needs psychiatric care, and better they should get it than not."
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Post by Bill Thompson on Feb 7, 2007 22:08:48 GMT -4
I have seen lots of mania. Noone ever got hurt but the manic.
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Post by gillianren on Feb 8, 2007 0:20:02 GMT -4
You've seen different people than the norm, then. (Heh. Normal people with bipolar disorder.)
You can believe me or not, but it doesn't change the facts. Do you need more examples? Or a reference from a medical text?
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Post by PhantomWolf on Feb 8, 2007 15:45:25 GMT -4
Never once have I heard of a case where they put others at risk or threaten other lives.
Maybe you should type "bipolar murder" in Google News once and a while. It's never to late to learn.
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Post by PhantomWolf on Feb 8, 2007 15:56:08 GMT -4
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Post by Bill Thompson on Feb 8, 2007 15:58:07 GMT -4
First of all, I think I do speek as someone "in the know" and "from the inside".
As a devoted husband who does not leave his wife just because of an illness, I attended weekly family support groups for her. The talks went on for hours.
The two things I heard often was that people who were manic had a bark that was worse than their bite and they really did not have the real desire to hurt anyone in reality; and they would often complain about a case that they read in the newspaper where someone who was arrested who was using bipolar as a defense for murder.
If bipolar people commit murder, I think they are legally no different than others who commit murder. They are using the insanity defense as a way out, perhaps, or I think they are lying.
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Post by gillianren on Feb 8, 2007 18:19:00 GMT -4
You're wrong. I marvel at your wife's patience at your ignorance on this subject.
Explain why I've nearly killed my sister, my boyfriend's mother, and my ren faire friend. I don't want to kill any of them, and the harm I nearly did my boyfriend's mother nearly made us break up--and left me homeless in the bargain. I didn't want to hurt her, but only the greater-than-average control over my temper prevented me from doing so. As it was, I threw a pitcher at her.
And you have to remember, most of my friends have never seen me mad. I keep the tightest rein imaginable on my temper, because I have to. I can't just get a little mad once in a while. It's all or nothing. I work very, very hard to make it be nothing.
That day when I almost killed my boyfriend's mother, I had just enough self-control left to turn my anger inward instead. I ended up in fetal position on the floor, screaming and clawing my own face. When I was doing that, I knew where my hands were and that I wasn't hurting her.
Don't tell me I'm lying when I go on trial for finally snapping and killing Alle, Bill. It will indeed be different. She won't let me walk away. If I walk away, I can keep it together. If the situation keeps pushing, and keeps pushing, and keeps pushing, the demon in my brain gets loose. I can't control it then. My main control mechanism--leaving the situation--has failed me, and I can't help what I do.
Still, it's not an insanity defense. I still know that society thinks what I did was wrong, and that's the only possible "insanity" in most legal jurisdictions. In that moment, I just don't care.
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Feb 8, 2007 19:01:32 GMT -4
I have several good friends who are bipolar. None of them have ever actually attempted to hurt me, but I have seen them mad enough (usually over rather trivial things) that I thought they might try it.
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Feb 8, 2007 19:08:29 GMT -4
On a side note, I have occasionally had a problem with "innocent by reason of insanity". Perhaps it would be better if it read "guilty by reason of insanity" - that is, if mental illness were seen as a mitigating factor (and a very significant one) in a sentance of guilt rather than as something completely excusing guilt, as if the crime had not occurred.
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Post by Apollo Gnomon on Feb 8, 2007 19:28:29 GMT -4
You know, Bill, insanity isn't all it's cracked up to be. And hysteria is no laughing matter.
Every human is a different being. I've had my own moments - and lived to contemplate them in a different light. I feel very sorry for Nowak. What she has just experienced must have been very painful.
Knowing you just the little that I do, I'm surprised your wife hasn't tried to kill you.
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Post by PhantomWolf on Feb 8, 2007 21:04:58 GMT -4
Knowing you just the little that I do, I'm surprised your wife hasn't tried to kill you.
Me too, he's made me want too on many occasions and I'm not Bipolar.
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Post by Bill Thompson on Feb 8, 2007 21:12:40 GMT -4
David Letterman's Top Ten Signs An Astronaut Is Trying To Kill You
10. Says, "This is a giant leap for mankind" as she tosses you off a bridge
9. You turn on CNN and see the Hubble Telescope focusing on your house
8. She promises to "Take you out like Pluto"
7. It sounds crazy, but you could swear Mars is following you
6. You were on the "Maury" episode: "I Had A Booty Call And Now An Astronaut Is Trying To Kill Me"
5. Her previous attempts to kill you have been postponed due to high winds
4. She poisons your Tang
3.Says she looks forward to being the first to walk on your lifeless corpse
2. Been getting threatening emails from Connie@InternationalSpaceStation.com
1.She keeps stabbing you with a pen that writes upside down
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Post by Bill Thompson on Feb 9, 2007 17:16:17 GMT -4
You're wrong. I marvel at your wife's patience at your ignorance on this subject. Explain why I've nearly killed my sister, my boyfriend's mother, and my ren faire friend. I don't want to kill any of them, and the harm I nearly did my boyfriend's mother nearly made us break up--and left me homeless in the bargain. I didn't want to hurt her, but only the greater-than-average control over my temper prevented me from doing so. As it was, I threw a pitcher at her. And you have to remember, most of my friends have never seen me mad. I keep the tightest rein imaginable on my temper, because I have to. I can't just get a little mad once in a while. It's all or nothing. I work very, very hard to make it be nothing. That day when I almost killed my boyfriend's mother, I had just enough self-control left to turn my anger inward instead. I ended up in fetal position on the floor, screaming and clawing my own face. When I was doing that, I knew where my hands were and that I wasn't hurting her. Don't tell me I'm lying when I go on trial for finally snapping and killing Alle, Bill. It will indeed be different. She won't let me walk away. If I walk away, I can keep it together. If the situation keeps pushing, and keeps pushing, and keeps pushing, the demon in my brain gets loose. I can't control it then. My main control mechanism--leaving the situation--has failed me, and I can't help what I do. Still, it's not an insanity defense. I still know that society thinks what I did was wrong, and that's the only possible "insanity" in most legal jurisdictions. In that moment, I just don't care. You behaviour seems perfectly normal except for the confession that you go to a ren fair.
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