Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
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Post by Jason on May 30, 2007 13:00:53 GMT -4
This topic has come up on the forums a couple of times. The basic idea is, how can you judge whether a given religion (or even religion as a whole) is overall a good or bad thing? Michael Medved wrote an opinion piece that was published today concerning Mormomism in particular (you knew Momonism was going to come up somewhere on a thread I worte, right?), but much of what he says can be applied to Religion in general as well. He gives three general criteria: The full article can be found at: www.townhall.com/columnists/MichaelMedved/2007/05/30/should_mormonism_disqualify_a_candidateI think it's definitely worth a read.
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Post by LunarOrbit on May 30, 2007 13:37:49 GMT -4
I think religion is maybe a good thing at the level of an individual person if they can take comfort and hope from it. But when you look at the larger scale religion is often used to justify hate, oppression, violence, and war (the kind of things that religion is supposed to be against).
Most religions say they are about peace and love, but really it's only peace and love if you agree with them and follow their (often contradictory) rules.
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Jason
Pluto
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Post by Jason on May 30, 2007 13:58:20 GMT -4
Which again raises the question, is it fair to judge the value of a religion by those who proclaim their adherence while at the same time breaking the religion's most stringent commandments?
If you meet someone who claims to be a Christian and he is a racist hate-monger, do you judge Christianity badly or the person?
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reynoldbot
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Post by reynoldbot on May 30, 2007 14:22:12 GMT -4
well, if it is so easy to exploit religion for violent purposes then maybe that is a fundamental problem with the religion rather than just with the people exploiting it.
I agree that religion is usually more positive at the individual level, but positive societal impact of religion is widespread too. The negative aspects of religion garner more attention but that doesn't mean good things don't happen a lot. I think religion falls prey to many of the things that other large organizations fall prey to: corruption, greed, selfish and short-sighted acts, and intolerance. I mean, look at a company like Enron. Enron became entrenched in corruption, greed and scandal, but the higher-ups all thought they were justified in their actions.
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Jason
Pluto
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Post by Jason on May 30, 2007 14:52:21 GMT -4
well, if it is so easy to exploit religion for violent purposes then maybe that is a fundamental problem with the religion rather than just with the people exploiting it. That sounds rather like the murderer who blames his crimes on the availability of knives. "I had to kill him, because the knife store was right there!" Maybe the knife availability should be tightened up, but the murderer is the one who killed his victim, not the cutlery shop. Edited: Changed "guns" to "knives", as I don't want to get in a whole gun control debate.
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Post by LunarOrbit on May 30, 2007 15:02:19 GMT -4
If you meet someone who claims to be a Christian and he is a racist hate-monger, do you judge Christianity badly or the person? I see what you're saying, Jason, and I agree that it's almost always the way people interpret the bible that is to blame. But what about when that interpretation is the official stance of the church? The crusades, for example, were sanctioned by the Pope. War in the name of God despite the fact that He told us quite plainly never to kill.
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Jason
Pluto
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Post by Jason on May 30, 2007 15:14:04 GMT -4
If you meet someone who claims to be a Christian and he is a racist hate-monger, do you judge Christianity badly or the person? I see what you're saying, Jason, and I agree that it's almost always the way people interpret the bible that is to blame. But what about when that interpretation is the official stance of the church? The crusades, for example, were sanctioned by the Pope. War in the name of God despite the fact that He told us quite plainly never to kill. And I think most of Christianity today agrees that the Crusades were a mistake. So do you then apply the sins of medieval Christianity to their modern descendents, or do you give them credit for recognizing that their faith has made mistakes in the past?
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Al Johnston
"Cheer up!" they said, "It could be worse!" So I did, and it was.
Posts: 1,453
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Post by Al Johnston on May 30, 2007 15:35:33 GMT -4
Hmm, given the wealth of a lot of christian churches and many individual christians, have they perfected the art of passing camels through the eyes of needles easily? ;D
Religion is generally fine at an individual level, although the false presumption that it is somehow necessary for altruism and good or benevolent acts is more than a little irritating; it's the organised sort that tends to cause problems.
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Post by gillianren on May 30, 2007 16:03:17 GMT -4
The crusades, for example, were sanctioned by the Pope. War in the name of God despite the fact that He told us quite plainly never to kill. Not so plainly, actually; a better translation of the phrase is "murder." No, I don't think you should judge a religion completely based on its past history, but I think a religion should acknowledge and atone for its past history, too. Covering it up is a bad thing that the religion's current incarnation is doing, if they're doing it. I don't think a question like this can be answered yes or no, either. Or, as Reverend Lovejoy puts it, it's either yes with a but or no with an if.
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Post by echnaton on May 31, 2007 13:55:14 GMT -4
Religion is generally fine at an individual level, although the false presumption that it is somehow necessary for altruism and good or benevolent acts is more than a little irritating;. It certainly is. I find this at my church occasionally and usually call people on it. It is far too easy to point out examples of those proclaiming to be Christians that are very unchristian in their behavior. Likewise one of the most my most ethical and charitable friends is an agnostic. Claiming to have such an exclusive club is really a conspiracy theory in itself, with the claimant on the inside of the conspiracy instead of the outside. But still ignoring evidence to the contrary.
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belial
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Post by belial on Jun 3, 2007 4:45:50 GMT -4
i have found that all religous beliefs are full of people more than willing to forget what there particular religion asks for and slightly twists it to fit into there own life in some way. this is a natural human condition, beyond this we have the fundamentalists who take it to the extreme and turn it all the way around to fit into there twisted beliefs, (nothing to do with the original religous teachings) it's just the way this world is going. ps - hi everyone my first post.
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Post by gillianren on Jun 4, 2007 0:59:44 GMT -4
Welcome aboard!
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Post by BertL on Jun 4, 2007 2:06:45 GMT -4
Religion is good in that it can comfort some people. It is also good because it can teach people moral.
Religion as it is now is not good, though.
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Jason
Pluto
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Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Jun 4, 2007 11:03:08 GMT -4
Religion is good in that it can comfort some people. It is also good because it can teach people moral. Religion as it is now is not good, though. None of it is good now? What about the charitable efforts many religions in the world run these days? Things like shelters for the homeless, disaster relief, education and infrastructure for thrid-world countries, etc.
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Post by BertL on Jun 4, 2007 11:15:57 GMT -4
It seems I have not made things clear enough.
I'm extremely happy there are a lot of religios charities, like you say. But I don't think it's good when a religion teaches people to (basically) discriminate homosexuals, or not believe what science says because it contradicts with what the Bible says.
Again, it's very good to see how many good religion is doing in the world. But it is also doing bad things, and that's a pity.
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