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Post by Bill Thompson on Aug 12, 2007 18:36:53 GMT -4
Countless times, I have discussed that the burden of proof is on those who say something does exist, not on those who say it does not. And as I have said before, no one at SETI is saying that ETI does exist, just that it might. It's a possibility that can't be ruled out (since as even you admit, you can't prove something doesn't exist) and that makes it worth investigating. You're basically saying that since we can't prove aliens exist NOW we shouldn't even investigate the possibility in order to prove their existence LATER. You want us to prove their existence before we have even looked... don't you see the problem with that? Don't you see the problem with requiring an answer before the investigation has been completed? The fact that intelligent life exists on at least one planet that we know of (Earth) is all the reason I need to believe it can exist elsewhere. Our existence works against Fermi's Paradox because if it can happen here there is no reason it can't happen elsewhere. It might be extremely rare, but if it can happen once it can happen again. I agree with everything you have said apart from the last paragraph somewhat. In light of the Scientific American article that I have posted a link to and all the other available information I have seen and read, I think our energies and scientific funding would be better served searching for life and not necessarily intelligent life. The biological mysteries that would be unlocked by finding life would be worth great expense. The likelihood of finding a signal for ETI is so small that I think it is worth less expense and energy and effort.
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Post by Dead Hoosiers on Aug 12, 2007 20:50:42 GMT -4
Afterwards, God will destroy and remake the entire universe (including Earth).Will people be destroyed too? Will the new Universe have different natural laws than ours? 1. Yes, the last of the wicked born into the world during the millennium will be destroyed. 2. I don't know. The Bible doesn't say. But it does say that after that destruction, followed by judgment, there will be no more death. That's a pretty big change from our current natural laws.
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Jason
Pluto
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Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Aug 12, 2007 23:55:57 GMT -4
Actually I can't think of any Bible passage that says anything about life on other planets, for or against.
LDS theology states that God has created "worlds without end" and that many of them are inhabited, but has very little else to say about them. Moses 1:35 "But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them. "
Brigham Young speculated that there were people living on the moon, which was a fairly common belief in his day - but he never said "God has told me there are people living on the moon". Which would have been a problem, since it seems very unlikely today that there is any life at all on the moon.
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Post by Data Cable on Aug 13, 2007 1:27:13 GMT -4
From a biblical standpoint, there is no life on other planets. The bible says no such thing.
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Post by Data Cable on Aug 13, 2007 1:31:29 GMT -4
But I am working with the information and data we have and looking at it logically. 20 years ago, we had no data on extra solar planets. Does that mean that they didn't exist until detected?
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Post by Dead Hoosiers on Aug 13, 2007 10:47:07 GMT -4
From a biblical standpoint, there is no life on other planets. The bible says no such thing. I didn't say the Bible says that. Considering that, scripturally, God's entire focus for all eternity is on this planet and the total absence of anything even remotely hinting at intelligent life elsewhere, it's a logical conclusion. If you can come up with something from the Bible that supports any other conclusion, please post it.
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Post by LunarOrbit on Aug 13, 2007 11:03:04 GMT -4
I didn't say the Bible says that. What does... From a biblical standpoint, there is no life on other planets....mean if not "it says in the bible"? The bible also doesn't say anything about automobiles or airplanes, and yet they exist. That is why basing all of your beliefs on what a 2000+ year old book says (or in this case, doesn't say) can cause problems.
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Jason
Pluto
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Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Aug 13, 2007 11:19:11 GMT -4
I didn't say the Bible says that. Considering that, scripturally, God's entire focus for all eternity is on this planet... Actually I don't think there's any scriptural support for that either. Isn't it a bit of a stretch to say that because the Bible doesn't mention something it's not there? The Bible doesn't say anything about people living in the Americas, but I don't hear anyone claiming that this is proof that no one was living in America during Biblical times. Hebrews 1:2 "Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds." Hebrews 11:3 "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear." Those are the only two I could find in the Bible, but they do seem to indicate multiple worlds were created, not just one.
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Aug 13, 2007 11:52:48 GMT -4
In light of the Scientific American article that I have posted a link to... The Scientific American article only says that Earthlike worlds may be rarer than we thought at first, not that there is no possibility of extra-terrestrial life. Considering everything else the US Government wastes money on I have no problem spending a little money on the remote possibility of detecting intelligent life. It would be a world-changing event if it were successful. How much of SETI funding is government funds anyway? What's the budget for SETI? We should probably have those figures before we decide it's too much.
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Post by Data Cable on Aug 13, 2007 14:42:36 GMT -4
I didn't say the Bible says that. Considering that, scripturally, God's entire focus for all eternity is on this planet... Using that logic, it would be just as correct to say "From a biblical standpoint, there are no other planets." That is, unless you can cite explicit biblical reference to Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter or Saturn.
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Post by Data Cable on Aug 13, 2007 14:44:04 GMT -4
How much of SETI funding is government funds anyway? As I understand it, zilch. SETI is entirely privately funded.
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Jason
Pluto
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Post by Jason on Aug 13, 2007 14:57:07 GMT -4
Hmm. From a cursory glance yes, SETI apparently stopped receiving government funding in 1993. If it's all privately-funded now then I believe we have no grounds for objection.
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Jason
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Post by Jason on Aug 13, 2007 15:03:54 GMT -4
Oh, and I don't see any explicit mentions of the other planets of our solar system in the Bible. It does mention Orion, Arcturus, and the Pleiades. The morning star is mentioned a few times in Revelations, and that's probably Venus, but it's not identified as a planet.
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Post by Bill Thompson on Aug 13, 2007 20:31:43 GMT -4
The American Standard Bible my father gave us as kids was full of all sorts of diagrams and explainations and historic references. On the first page it clearly showed that the ancient Hebrews fully believed the world was flat and the sky was a dome.
So why are we talking about the Bible in this discussion thread?
People have pointed to the passage where the Earth is described as being round. But that is translateed from a hebrew word that means round and flat like a coin and not like a ball. And YES, they did have a word for a sphere. And YES they used that word eleswhere in the bible.
A spiritual and inspirational text should not be used when discussing something purely scientific.
The fact is that it is all about mathematics. It deals with probability. The question is simply "what are the odds that Intellignet life appears". Sure there is intelligent life in space. This is simply because The Earth is in space. But how frequent does it happen? If the odds are so low that you can say that it only exists once per every 20 galaxies then we are alone for all practical purposes.
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Jason
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Post by Jason on Aug 13, 2007 20:49:32 GMT -4
"How frequent does it happen?" is precisely the question, and no one can really say at this point. We only have the one sample case, and one data point is not enough to come to any conclusions.
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