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Post by Ginnie on Jun 30, 2007 17:21:20 GMT -4
I personally beleive that you should beleive your church's doctrine or you shouldn't belong to it. Treating a church as just a social club strikes me as dishonest. I'd have to disagree.
What if you've been going to a certain church all your life. What if you're 70 years old, and all your friends go to that church. What if over the last couple of years, you find that you disagree with some of your church's doctrine, lets say, you no longer believe that Mary remained a virgin all her life (I guess you're a Catholic then) What if your mate dies and you're kids and grandkids no longer come around to visit you. What if ALL you're friends go to that church, and ALL your socializing for the past 40 years have been either at the church or church sponsored. Are you saying that because you disagree with some of your church's doctrine that you no longer should be going there? And this is not a far fetched situation at all.
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Jason
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Post by Jason on Jun 30, 2007 18:33:49 GMT -4
If you've stopped believing then in my view you have two options: start believing again or stop going. If you want to start believing again get help from the local church leaders and study up on the points that attracted you to the faith in the first place (or if you were born into it, the points that you always liked the most). Attend the meetings and try to listen more. Read the scriptures. See if you can find real value in them. Pray and ask for God's aid. See if you can come to the bottom of your problems with your faith. It might be as simple as a dislike of the other people in the faith or one particular person who you feel wronged you. If so, remember that hospitals are for the sick, and churchs are likewise for those in need of repentence (which we all are). If you decide that your problem is a fundamental disagreement with the doctrines or beliefs of your church and you find no way of reconciling them to yourself, then I think you should go to choice #2 - stop going.
If you decide to stop attending your friends and family that really care about you shouldn't shun you - if they share your faith then they will probably do what they can to help you regain it. If you find something still missing in your life after deciding to no longer go to your current church then perhaps you should look at others. Maybe one of them will suit you better. Or perhaps you're not ready for any church at the moment. Perhaps some time away will convince you of the value of what you gave up.
In any case I would find it dishonest to continue to go to a church you do not believe in, or have serious disagreements with. You need to take action to rectify the situation one way or the other. Attempting to reform the church is not the answer either. If it wasn't the work of God to begin with, then adding your efforts won't make it so.
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Post by Ginnie on Jun 30, 2007 19:29:54 GMT -4
I see your points . My view is just a little bit different, well, maybe more than just a little. I wonder though, if leaving a church instead of trying to change it is the best thing to do. You mean there is absolutely NOTHING that you want to change in your church? You're saying that your religion started out perfect? I know the Catholic church has changed a lot over the years.
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Jason
Pluto
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Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Jun 30, 2007 21:18:32 GMT -4
My church claims to be inspired directly by God in all the most important things. Minor things sure, we can disagree on them. The church is still run by imperfect human beings. If I disagree with how they do the really important things, though, then either I'm wrong or they aren't really inspired.
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Post by Bill Thompson on Jul 1, 2007 5:06:54 GMT -4
I personally beleive that you should beleive your church's doctrine or you shouldn't belong to it. Treating a church as just a social club strikes me as dishonest. That does not make sense either. Believing in the lesson or the spirit of a message does not mean that one believes that the lesson literally happened.
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reynoldbot
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Post by reynoldbot on Jul 1, 2007 5:30:30 GMT -4
I truly believe Jesus was stabbed with a spear to his back, not his ribs. I can not be reconciled on this.
Well, I guess I better go find a different religion now. One that supports my back stab wound view. I wouldn't want to live a lie.
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Post by gillianren on Jul 1, 2007 6:18:16 GMT -4
Of course, the movie Evan Almighty would have you believe that God wants you to be close to your family or he will destroy a whole town and kill thousands of people. Plus, he will make you build a big ark and collect 2 of every animal for absolutely no reason as the flood will not actually threaten any species. Gods, the concept of that movie irritates me. The fire next time; even nine-year-old Catholics can tell you that God said he wouldn't flood the Earth again!
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Post by Bill Thompson on Jul 1, 2007 6:26:39 GMT -4
If you've stopped believing then in my view you have two options: start believing again or stop going. "Start Believing"? That does not make sense. Belief should be mathematical and based on logic. It should not be a "choice". First one chooses to think rational or chooses not to. What one believes based on that choice cannot be changed if he makes the first choice correctly.
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Post by Bill Thompson on Jul 1, 2007 8:41:35 GMT -4
It is perfectly understandable to believe in a church and not believe all the rhetoric they preach. We can judge by the content of character and by actions. What a church does with its money is important. Does it horde it or does it give it to the poor and those in need? Does it build homes for the homeless or does it break homes and cause foreclosures and bankruptcies? Are their doors open wide to anyone? Or do the alienate people?
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Jason
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Post by Jason on Jul 1, 2007 12:43:59 GMT -4
I truly believe Jesus was stabbed with a spear to his back, not his ribs. I can not be reconciled on this. Well, I guess I better go find a different religion now. One that supports my back stab wound view. I wouldn't want to live a lie. That would seem to be a rather minor point. Whether Jesus was killed at all would be a major point in any Christian faith. If you use a minor point like this as an excuse to leave your church (and I have met people who have used a similar point to leave my own church), then I strongly suspect that it's just that - an excuse for avoiding some other commandment that you have a hard time obeying. "Ah, I decided that the LDS church is wrong because they think Jesus was stabbed with a spear in the front. Now I can go back to drinking my coffee and smoking."
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Post by Bill Thompson on Jul 1, 2007 20:10:28 GMT -4
Let's keep on track. If the whole Earth was flooded, the evidence would be everywhere. Instead, there is no evidence anywhere. That is all. It did not happen.
Historians think the story came from when the Red Sea was flooded after a rainstorm broke the natural damn between the valley and the Mediterranean Sea. It probably happened during a rain storm and thus it seems that the flood came by the rain. Also to the survivors, it would seem that the whole world was flooded as well. So the story begins. And over time questions produce answers that are additions to the story. For example, the question: "if the whole world was flooded how did people and animals survive" produces the answer that the Gods told Ganglaboogie to build a huge ship". Etc.
This is what historians think. For me to disagree would require me to have evidence to counter them. I do not. So arguing this is pointless to me.
But it makes perfect sense what I will repeat again. If the whole Earth was flooded, the evidence would be everywhere. Instead, there is no evidence anywhere. That is all. It did not happen.
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Post by gillianren on Jul 2, 2007 2:19:47 GMT -4
Um, Bill, some historians think that. A majority think it's a corruption of Gilgamesh.
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reynoldbot
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Post by reynoldbot on Jul 3, 2007 0:24:51 GMT -4
A lot of bible apologists will say the stories could predate the printing of gilgamesh through oral telling, but will refuse to accept that gilgamesh could have or probably went through the same oral process.
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reynoldbot
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Post by reynoldbot on Jul 3, 2007 0:31:14 GMT -4
I truly believe Jesus was stabbed with a spear to his back, not his ribs. I can not be reconciled on this. Well, I guess I better go find a different religion now. One that supports my back stab wound view. I wouldn't want to live a lie. That would seem to be a rather minor point. Whether Jesus was killed at all would be a major point in any Christian faith. If you use a minor point like this as an excuse to leave your church (and I have met people who have used a similar point to leave my own church), then I strongly suspect that it's just that - an excuse for avoiding some other commandment that you have a hard time obeying. "Ah, I decided that the LDS church is wrong because they think Jesus was stabbed with a spear in the front. Now I can go back to drinking my coffee and smoking." Nothing is minor, jason. I cannot be reconciled. It is a terrible lie. If such a lie could be perpetrated in the supposed word of god, then what else could be a lie? how could the bible be the word of god if even one small passage is a bald-faced lie? This was intended as a joke, something you somehow didn't pick up on. But it did actually highlight a problem. Even a small problem with a religion can have epic consequences if one adopts your mantra. That's what interpretation is all about, Jason.
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Post by gillianren on Jul 3, 2007 3:21:57 GMT -4
I consider where the nails are placed in crucifixion pictures to be a minor detail that thousands of artists have gotten wrong, but whatever. The issue to me is, if I agree with most of a religion, even if some of what I disagree with seems major to you, and if I feel closer to that religion than any other, do you really have to have no religion? Do you invent your own? What do you think, Jason?
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