Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Jul 3, 2007 11:10:30 GMT -4
This was intended as a joke, something you somehow didn't pick up on. No, I knew you were joking, but as it is a real issue for some people I gave a real answer.
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Jul 3, 2007 11:18:35 GMT -4
I consider where the nails are placed in crucifixion pictures to be a minor detail that thousands of artists have gotten wrong, but whatever. I'm curious. What problem are you speaking of? Hmmm. Well, if you're in the situation that you most agree with one religion and you haven't found another that suits you better you probably are better off to attend it than to try to go invent your own. But that would be after you have made an effort to reconcile your beliefs with those of your church, and once you have decided to stick with a church I think you should follow their guidelines, even those you privately disagree with. My original statement may have been too absolute.
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Post by gillianren on Jul 3, 2007 15:28:36 GMT -4
I'm curious. What problem are you speaking of? Crucifixion victims were never nailed up through the hands, on account of the tearing. The nails went into the wrists. My Gods, Jason. Did you actually concede a point? How novel!
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Post by Ginnie on Jul 3, 2007 19:51:28 GMT -4
I'm curious. What problem are you speaking of? Crucifixion victims were never nailed up through the hands, on account of the tearing. The nails went into the wrists.
There's a lot of varied opinion on the matter of crucifixion. It is possible that some victims were nailed through the hands but forearms were tied with rope to the beams of the cross. Of course, all crucifixions were probably not done the same way. Sometime there was a sort of seat (sedile) about halfway down on the cross. This would support the victims weight and he/she could have nails just through the hand. Death would take longer too. Even though crucifixion was forbidden by ancient Jewish Law, the King of Judea, Alexander Jannaeus (103 BCE to 76 BCE), did crucify 800 men for siding with the Greek king Demetrius III. And in the Dead Sea Scrolls one writer wrote "If a man is a traitor against his people and gives them up to a foreign nation, so doing evil to his people, you are to hang him on a tree until dead". And, "the Lion of Wrath (Alexander Jannaeus) used to hang men alive, as it was done in Israel in former times." So it seems to have been used even further back in Israel's history. The Carthaginians seemed to have thought of crucifixion first, it spread to the Greeks (Alexander the Great used it a lot), and then the middle east. Japan even crucified Christian monks in the 16th century. Of course their knowledge of it came from the Bible itself.
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Post by gillianren on Jul 4, 2007 1:29:42 GMT -4
Nailing through the hands but tying the wrists just seems awful wasteful--and either way, few paintings show the ropes, either way.
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Jul 4, 2007 13:08:31 GMT -4
The LDS view is that Jesus had nails driven through both his palms and his wrists, along with his feet. So another point we agree on - most depictions of the crucifixion are inaccurate in this regard.
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Post by gillianren on Jul 4, 2007 14:22:38 GMT -4
That's a waste of nails that history shows no documentation of. So yes, we agree that they're wrong--but, historically speaking, so are you. Again.
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Jul 5, 2007 10:43:17 GMT -4
Oh, it was my opinion so it must be wrong, huh?
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Post by LunarOrbit on Jul 5, 2007 11:11:42 GMT -4
Oh, it was my opinion so it must be wrong, huh? That's a very ironic thing for you to say, Jason, considering in another thread you said Einstein was wrong about God... not that you believed he was wrong but that he was wrong. What makes your opinion right and Einstein's wrong? What gives you the right to declare your interpretation of God to be more accurate than someone else's?
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Jul 5, 2007 11:53:08 GMT -4
I'm pointing out that it's possible Gilliian is immediately speaking out against my opinion preciesly because it is my opinion, because of disagreements of opinion I have had with her on other threads. Apparently I've made myself unpopular through my opinions on specific threads and it's starting to leak over.
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Jul 5, 2007 11:54:22 GMT -4
If it gets to the point where I can't say anything on this forum without being immediately doggy-piled on then I might have ato take a break for a while and let things cool off.
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Al Johnston
"Cheer up!" they said, "It could be worse!" So I did, and it was.
Posts: 1,453
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Post by Al Johnston on Jul 5, 2007 12:01:26 GMT -4
Which part of
"That's a waste of nails that history shows no documentation of."
was unclear?
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Post by gillianren on Jul 5, 2007 15:29:37 GMT -4
Quite right. You show me one piece of historical evidence that anyone was ever nailed through both hands and wrists, and I will cheerfully withdraw my statement that you're wrong that Jesus was nailed up that way. (I will still consider it highly improbable, but I won't call it wrong.)
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Post by Ginnie on Jul 5, 2007 20:02:20 GMT -4
How would anyone know exactly how Jesus was crucified? We can't even prove that he even existed. Why would they nail him through the hands and the wrist? There's hardly any archeological evidence for the methods of crucifixion, Some scholars suggest that most of the time victims weren't nailed at all, but tied to the cross.
They found evidence of a crucified man at Giv'at Ha-Mivttar in 1968. That's not much. Apparantly the nails of cruficied victims were often taken and used as magic amulets.
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Post by gillianren on Jul 6, 2007 3:55:54 GMT -4
I don't expect to know how Jesus was crucified, though I do believe He existed. I have just studied enough to know that the crucified were nailed to the crosses through the wrists. Remember, it was a relatively common punishment--as long as you weren't a Roman citizen; citizens were exempt.
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