Jason
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Post by Jason on Jul 24, 2007 23:01:53 GMT -4
After having read Harry Potter and The Deathly Hallows I find it even more ridiculous that some fundamentalist groups deride the series as satanistic. The book series has obvious Christian roots (mild spoilers ahead):
1. Easter and Christmas are the major holidays celebrated at Hogwarts, when the students are sent home to their families.
2. The wizarding world accepts the existence of the soul as a proven fact, and that murder damages the soul.
3. Voldemort attempts to cheat death on his own abilities. Characters like Dumbledore ultimatedly accept death as a necessary step to the next existence.
4. Love and Human life are seen as precious and irreplacable.
5. The first weapon that Harry finds capable of destroying Voldemort's horcruxes is described as "A great silver cross . . ." before he realizes it is a sword.
6. Two unattributed quotes from the Bible appear in book seven - one from 1 Corinthians and one from Mathew, both present on tombstones of important wizarding families.
7. An afterlife in which good deeds are rewarded and bad deeds are punished is present.
It's subtle, but Harry Potter's story is more pro-Christian than anti-Christian.
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Post by gillianren on Jul 25, 2007 4:37:29 GMT -4
It's a moral series, regardless of whose morals you're using.
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Jason
Pluto
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Post by Jason on Jul 25, 2007 13:44:06 GMT -4
Self-sacrifice to protect others (both Harry's mother and Harry himself) is also a strong theme in the books.
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Post by BertL on Jul 25, 2007 14:31:56 GMT -4
Yes, but that isn't necessarily something "Christian".
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Jason
Pluto
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Post by Jason on Jul 25, 2007 14:59:48 GMT -4
The center of the Christian religion is God sacrificing his only son in order to save everyone else.
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Post by BertL on Jul 25, 2007 15:16:21 GMT -4
Yes, but that still doesn't make it necessarily something "Christian".
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Post by PhantomWolf on Jul 25, 2007 17:04:36 GMT -4
I disagree with you Jason, they aren't "evil" like many try and claim, any more than the Lord of the Rings is, but they aren't based on a Christian message either.
Now if you want books that are, try The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe and The Final Battle from C. S. Lewis' Narina series. They have very strong and very obvious Christian messages in them.
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Post by Dead Hoosiers on Jul 25, 2007 17:24:31 GMT -4
Janson, your theory is beyond belief!
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Jul 25, 2007 18:12:48 GMT -4
It's not really a theory - more of a conversation maker, really. In fact I picked the title of the thread solely to get people to read it.
C.S. Lewis' Chronicles are very obviously Christian. Tolkien's work is more comparable to Harry Potter. Middle Earth is Christian, but with much more subtlety than Narnia is.
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Post by donnieb on Jul 25, 2007 19:52:55 GMT -4
*** Possible Spoiler Warning ***
I agree with Jason that the HP series has many Christian elements, and that the final book has more explicitly Christian symbolism than the others. I think it's notable that a crucial, penultimate scene takes place in "King's Cross". Yes, I know that's a real place and that its name is not a direct reference to Calvary, but it can certainly be taken that way -- and the scene in question is one that concerns sacrifice and resurrection.
On the other hand, though, Rowling also incorporates many non-Christian ideas in the series, including things that are explicitly Pagan. Essayists on the HP fan sites have pointed out very strong themes taken from alchemy and the Tarot, for instance, and the series as a whole can be interpreted as a classic mythological "Hero's Quest" saga of the kind that appears in the tales of many different cultures.
The HP series is certainly a moral tale, an exploration of the nature of good and evil, right and wrong behavior, and the things we all should or should not strive for in our lives. But these themes are by no means the province of Christianity alone.
So I wouldn't agree that HP is a direct Christian parable. Instead, I'd argue that it blends mythological elements from many sources, including the Christian myth.
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Post by PhantomWolf on Jul 25, 2007 22:44:56 GMT -4
Tolkien's work is more comparable to Harry Potter. Middle Earth is Christian, but with much more subtlety than Narnia is.
Actually I'd disagree there too. Tolkien and Lewis were friends (dispite Tolkien being a Catholic and Lewis a Protestant) but Tolkien felt that Lewis' use of the Gospel in his writings was tacky (though he likely phased it differently.) From my readings on Tolkien and his creation of Middle Earth, one of the things he strived to do was to divorce it as much as possible to parallels in our own world, but rather allow people to see whatever meaning they wanted to in the world and his works. Hence things like the One Ring have been assigned many meanings over the years, such as Nuclear weapons, but to Tolkien it was simply a magic ring. Having said that, some things were reflections of his wartime experiences, such as the Sam/Frodo relationship being based on the Batonman relationship officers had with their aides during WW1, and the Marsh of the Dead symbology likely came from some of the horrors that Tolkien saw on the battlefields before he was discharged. he didn't attempt to add in Christian morles of parallels however, it's just that some things are universal so appear in Christianity as well.
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Post by Jason Thompson on Jul 26, 2007 7:26:00 GMT -4
On the other hand, though, Rowling also incorporates many non-Christian ideas in the series, including things that are explicitly Pagan. Worth noting at this point is that many Pagan rites and festivities have been adopted by Christianity. Christmas trees and the Easter bunny, for example. I haven't read the series, but I have heard a lot about it (how can you avoid it?), and I'd have to agree. It's a moral tale, not exclusively Christian but, by its nature, incorporating many values considered important by the Christian faith. Those same values are also considered important by other faiths too, however, so there is probably enough leeway for most major religions to find something in there that agrees with their viewpoint. If past behaviour of protest groups is much to go on, I suspect those decrying it as 'satanist' and evil have probably never read it and go simply by the fact that it involves wizards, black magic and casting spells in the plot.
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Post by echnaton on Jul 26, 2007 8:43:32 GMT -4
If past behaviour of protest groups is much to go on, I suspect those decrying it as 'satanist' and evil have probably never read it and go simply by the fact that it involves wizards, black magic and casting spells in the plot.
No doubt. We were discussing the HP phenomenon at my office one day when one of my coworkers mentioned the dangers of letting children read about witchcraft. I commented that most kids have these kinds of fantasies. It is kind of the early adolescent view of the adult world as their understanding of life begins to broaden, lots of things going on around them that they don’t understand and have little control over. Reading the books lets children express their feelings better and HP teaches them that education is the best ways to understand the unknown and actions have consequences. The look on her face said that I clearly didn’t understand the “real problem,” so I added that HP was completely harmless because we all know there is no such thing as witchcraft or magic. That brought on the look of dismay indicating that, in her view, I really didn’t appreciate the true Satanic dangers of the world.
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Post by ishmael on Jul 26, 2007 9:07:42 GMT -4
If past behaviour of protest groups is much to go on, I suspect those decrying it as 'satanist' and evil have probably never read it and go simply by the fact that it involves wizards, black magic and casting spells in the plot.No doubt. We were discussing the HP phenomenon at my office one day when one of my coworkers mentioned the dangers of letting children read about witchcraft. I commented that most kids have these kinds of fantasies. It is kind of the early adolescent view of the adult world as their understanding of life begins to broaden, lots of things going on around them that they don’t understand and have little control over. Reading the books lets children express their feelings better and HP teaches them that education is the best ways to understand the unknown and actions have consequences. The look on her face said that I clearly didn’t understand the “real problem,” so I added that HP was completely harmless because we all know there is no such thing as witchcraft or magic. That brought on the look of dismay indicating that, in her view, I really didn’t appreciate the true Satanic dangers of the world. So their objection to Harry Potter is that it's too - real?
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Jason
Pluto
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Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Jul 26, 2007 11:59:09 GMT -4
Actually I'd disagree there too. Tolkien and Lewis were friends (dispite Tolkien being a Catholic and Lewis a Protestant) but Tolkien felt that Lewis' use of the Gospel in his writings was tacky (though he likely phased it differently.) Tolkien didn't object to putting Christian themes in fiction - his problem with the Narnia chronicles is that he thought Lewis was too obvious about it - too overt. Tolkien disliked obvious allegory (which is why he insisted in the preface to the book that the Ring was not a metaphor for the atomic bomb). He may have even felt that placing Jesus so obviously in the story in the form of a lion was somewhat blasphemous. I disagree. Tolkien was strongly Catholic, and the Lord of the Rings is founded on a Catholic world view. The story is essentially an exploration of Christian religious themes in a pre-Christian world (Middle Earth is supposedly our own world in a different age before recorded history), showing that Christian morals are universal. "The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first but consciously in the revision." -J.R.R. Tolkien That quote alone is probably enough to make my case, but here's some aspects that are obviously Christian: Evil is parasitic - it is derived from corrupted good - it has no independent existence and cannot itself create. Morgoth, in the Silmarillion, is obviously Satan, and Sauron is a Satan figure. Good and evil are moral absolutes "Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among men." Middle-Earth is a fallen world. It once had a paradisaical state, but mortality was introduced and it has deteriorated ever since. The past is always grander and more glorious than the present. And mankind was God's last creation. Frodo, Gandalf, and Aragorn are each Christ-like figures. Frodo is the sacrificial lamb, Gandalf is the teacher who reveals hidden knowledge to his followers, and Aragorn is the conquering king who comes again. Each of these three descends into hell and is reborn - Frodo into Mordor, Gandalf into the abyss in Moria, and Aragorn through the Paths of the Dead. Gandalf is even tempted by Saruman before the beginning of his ministry very similarly to how Christ was tempted by Satan at the beginning of his ministry. Aragorn's kingship is the "second coming" of the king that all in Minas Tirith were looking forward to. Aragorn also shows spiritual gifts that prove he is the true king. "The hands of the king are the hands of a healer." Once Frodo is reborn he is still not wholly of this Earth, and must ascend to the West. Gandalf is also similar to the papacy. He holds no legal authority but provides spiritual guidance to the kings of the world, and he crowns Aragorn. The Elves and Frodo and Sam each call upon a female figure - Elbereth - in times of need, and this name is deadly to the servants of the enemy. When her name is invoked miracles follow, much like the Catholic invocation of Mary. The elven waybread lembas is the sacrament, and Frodo and Sam find that living only on the waybread strengthens their spirits beyond their bodies. As the Fellowship departs Lorien they each drink from a common cup as well. Tolkien said that the story is ultimately about death and acceptance of mortality. Death is said to be the gift of Illuvatar to mankind, and refusing to accept this gift always leads to sorrow (such as the fall of Numinor, and the Ringwraiths). The will of God (providence)is strongly present. Gandalf is an angel (he is an embodied spirit sent by the angels to council and aid mankind), and he tells Frodo that the ring was meant to come to him, and not by its maker. Elrond also believes Frodo is meant to be the ringbearer. The Eagles, said to be the heralds of Manwe, also serve as a deus ex machina several times, serving to save the story when nothing else can. Grace is also present. Frodo's sacrifice, which is the utmost of what he can do, is still insufficient but is accepted by God, and God's grace makes up the balance and destroys the Ring through the providential appearance of Gollum. Even the most evil of creatures therefore ultimately serves God's purposes.
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