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Post by Ginnie on Aug 16, 2007 22:38:03 GMT -4
Lately, I've seen a lot of material on the Web regarding the possibility that Jesus wasn't a real person, but a myth that has recycled itself many times in history, going back to the ancient Egyptians. These ancient myths have many things in common, an overview can be seen here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_mythI know this is wikipedia but it supplies the gist of the theories. I first came across this theory last year when I read 'The Pagan Christ' by Tom Harpur. I must admit I was perplexed by the idea in the same way as when I first came across the Apollo Moon Landing Hoax theory. Mr. Harpur writes that because the myth is so widespread over different times and cultures that it actually is more powerful evidence of God perhaps than if Jesus had really lived. It's like God gave these myths to to inspire and uplift humanity or something to that effect. I still don't know what I think of the whole matter. I tend to think that Jesus did exist, but that some of the old myth elements were used in the Bible in embellishing his life. Or something like that. Does anyone else have any explanation for the Jesus as Myth theory, or why so many elements are common in so many myths throughout time?
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Post by gillianren on Aug 17, 2007 14:09:24 GMT -4
The first thing to remember is that not everything that's claimed about Jesus is in the Bible. A lot of mythos got added on over the centuries as the Church attempted to Christianize the known world. That's where at least some of the similarities come from, just as it's where the date for the two major Christian holidays comes from.
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Post by Ginnie on Aug 17, 2007 15:34:32 GMT -4
Well, I was familiar with a few things relating to this: the December 25 birth date, the sun disk = halo (look at the Celtic cross), but some other stuff just threw me for a loop: the virgin birth, the crucifixion, ascension, resurrection etc., as those things are in the Bible itself, not apocrypha or non-Biblical. I think part of the whole Jesus myth thing is that you'll read that such and such is common, lets say to Babylonia myths and Christianity and we take it for fact. I'd have to do more more research into the other myths, preferably from scholars who have published material that pre-dates the web cause there's so much junk on it. Maybe Joseph Campbell and others like him. I remember learning about Egyptian myths in school but didn't come across anything like I've been seeing and reading lately that relates to this. I've seen a few videos on the web on this subject and have noticed glaring mistakes in the interpretation of ideas pertained in myths and also tenuous connections between them that really don't seem to exist.
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Post by Ginnie on Aug 17, 2007 19:47:57 GMT -4
From Religioustolerance.com"
Parallels between the stories of Jesus and Osiris-Dionysus
Dionysus, a Greek God, and Osiris, an Egyptian God were viewed as mythical characters. Osiris may have been the first god-man. His story has been found recorded in pyramid texts which were written prior to 2,500 BCE. These and other saviors were truly interchangeable. Coins have been found with Dionysus on one side and Mithras on the other. A person who was initiated into one of the mysteries had no difficulty switching to another Pagan mystery religion.
In the 3rd century CE, these god-men were referred to by the composite name "Osiris-Dionysus." Authors Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy have used this term in their book "The Jesus Mysteries." 1
Life events shared by Osiris, Dionysus and Jesus The following stories appear both in the Gospels and in the myths of many of the god-men: Conception: God was his father. This was believed to be literally true in the case of Osiris-Dionysus; their God came to earth and engaged in sexual intercourse with a human. The father of Jesus is God in the form of the Holy Spirit (Matthew 1:18). A human woman, a virgin, was his mother. Birth: He was born in a cave or cowshed. Luke 2:7 mentions that Jesus was placed in a manger - an eating trough for animals. One early Christian tradition said that the manger was in a cave. His birth was prophesized by a star in the heavens. Ministry: At a marriage ceremony, he performed the miracle of converting water into wine. He was powerless to perform miracles in his home town. His followers were born-again through baptism in water. He rode triumphantly into a city on a donkey. Tradition records that the inhabitants waved palm leaves. He had 12 disciples. He was accused of licentious behavior. Execution, resurrection, etc: He was killed near the time of the Vernal Equinox, about MAR-21. He died "as a sacrifice for the sins of the world." 1 He was hung on a tree, stake, or cross. After death, he descended into hell. On the third day after his death, he returned to life. The cave where he was laid was visited by three of his female followers He later ascended to heaven. His titles: God made flesh. Savior of the world. Son of God. Beliefs about the God-man: He is "God made man," and equal to the Father. He will return in the last days. He will judge the human race at that time. Humans are separated from God by original sin. The god-man's sacrificial death reunites the believer with God and atones for the original sin.
All of the Pagan myths had been circulating for centuries before Jesus birth (circa 4 to 7 BCE). It is obvious that if any copying occurred, it was the followers of Jesus incorporating into his biography the myths and legends of Osiris-Dionysus, not vice-versa.
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Post by Ginnie on Aug 17, 2007 20:08:53 GMT -4
But will all that, it's funny that if I look up a brief account of Osiris , none of the above appears in it:
The Myth of Osiris Osiris - god of the Underworld
In the very beginning of time Osiris was king over Egypt and his queen (and sister) was the goddess Isis. He was beloved by the people whom he told how to worship the gods and grow their crops for their daily bread. His brother Set became jealous and tried to overthrow him and become king himself. When participating in a feast with Osiris as host, Set began to describe a beautiful coffin he had, in a way that made the other guests curious. Isis - goddess of love and family Isis He was asked to fetch it and so he did and this was just in line with his plan. Everyone agreed that it was a magnificent piece of craftsmanship and Set told them that he would give it away for free to whomever fitted exactly into it. Since he had made the coffin himself it was measured to fit one person only - his brother Osiris. When he placed himself in it everybody could see that he was the one who would get i as a present, but the evil Set had other plans. With his brother Osiris still in it, he and his fellows quickly nailed the lid and threw it into the Nile. Queen Isis was overcome by sorrow and began to search all over the land for it, but in vain.
One day she heard that a wonderful tree had sprung on the shores of Byblos in the north on the Eastern coast of the Mediterranean Sea, where the local king had cut it down and built a palace from it. Horus - god of manhood and strength Horus Isis understood that this was the place where the coffin had come to shore and she went there in disguise. She got a job at the court as a hairdresser for the queen and now when she could walk freely inside the castle she began to look for the coffin, and finally she found it in a remote chamber. During the night she managed to snach it and embarked a boat heading for Egypt. When she came there she hid in the marshlands in the delta. There she opened the coffin and took a last farewell of her beloved husband Osiris and began searching for a suitable place to bury him. But Set was aware of all this and was hiding nearby. When Isis went to rest for the night he snatched the coffin and cut his brother's body into fourteen pieces and spread them all over Egypt. Isis became furious and asked her sister Nephthys and her son Anubis, to help her to find all the pieces of her husband's body.
They now started a nation wide search that lasted for many years and finally all the part of Osiris' body were found except for the penis which had been thrown into the Nile where it was devoured by a fish. Isis made a wooden replacement for it and then put the whole body together. She now asked the sun god Re to make her husband alive just for one day, which he did, and they could have a last night of love together. The next day Osiris died and his body was embalmed by Anubis who thus made him the first mummy. Isis later gave birth to a son who was named Horus and she did all she could to keep it a secret from Set, but he found them and almost killed them in an ambush.
They were saved by the god of wisdom - Thoth, and he told them to hide in the reeds in the marshes once more. But as before Set found their hiding place and had more wicked things on his mind. He transformed himself into a snake and gave the little Horus child a fatal bite. When Isis came back she found her baby almost lifeless, and took him to the nearest village to get help. A wise old woman examined him and found out that it must have been Set as a snake who had bitten him. Thoth came to their rescue once more and drove out the poison from Horus' body and he recovered. He and his mother stayed hiding in the delta until he was a mature man and sometimes he took the form of a hawk and scouted out Set for the final showdown - the revenge on his murdered father. When that moment came they fought for three days until Thoth stopped the fight. They were both taken to the Court of Law in the Underworld and there they presented their versions of the story leading to the combat. The Court did not believe Set, who was sentenced to pull the boat with the sun across the sky forever. Horus now became the new king of Egypt like his father Osiris before him, and the good had finally conquered evil. Isis put the body of her dead husband in a coffin and had nineteen identical coffins made in which she put duplicates. Priest from Egypt's twenty biggest towns then were given one each and could all thereafter claim that they had Osiris' tomb in their town. Thus many places in Egypt were (and still are) called Abusir - the place of Osiris
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Post by Ginnie on Aug 17, 2007 20:13:30 GMT -4
Or in this either:
Dionysus
Dionysus is the god of the vine. He invented wine and spread the art of tending grapes. He has a dual nature. On the one hand bringing joy and divine ecstasy. On the other brutal, unthinking, rage. Thus reflecting both sides of wines nature. If he chooses Dionysus can drive a man mad. No normal fetters can hold him or his followers.
Dionysus is the son of Zeus and Semele. He is the only god to have a mortal parent. Zeus came to Semele in the night, invisible, felt only as a divine presence. Semele was pleased to be a lover of a god, even though she did not know which one. Word soon got around and Hera quickly assumed who was responsible. Hera went to Semele in disguise and convinced her she should see her lover as he really was. When Zeus next came to her she made him promise to grant her one wish. She went so far as to make him swear on the River Styx that he would grant her request. Zeus was madly in love and agreed. She then asked him to show her his true form. Zeus, was unhappy, and knew what would happen but, having sworn he had no choice. He appeared in his true form and Semele was instantly burnt to a crisp by the sight of his glory. Zeus did manage to rescue Dionysus and stitched him into his thigh to hold him until he was ready to be born. His birth from Zeus alone conferred immortality upon him.
Dionysus problems with Hera were not yet over. She was still jealous and arranged for the Titans to kill him. The Titans ripped him into to pieces. However, Rhea brought him back to life. After this Zeus arranged for his protection and turned him over the mountain nymphs to be raised.
Dionysus wandered the world actively encouraging his cult. He was accompanied by the Maenads, wild women, flush with wine, shoulders draped with a fawn skin, carrying rods tipped with pine cones. While other gods had temples the followers of Dionysus worshipped him in the woods. Here they might go into mad states where they would rip apart and eat raw any animal they came upon.
Dionysus is also one of the very few that was able to bring a dead person out of the underworld. Even though he had never seen Semele he was concerned for her. Eventually he journeyed into the underworld to find her. He faced down Thanatos and brought her back to Mount Olympus.
Dionysus became one of the most important gods in everyday life. He became associated with several key concepts. One was rebirth after death. Here his dismemberment by the Titans and return to life is symbolically echoed in tending vines, where the vines must be pruned back sharply, and then become dormant in winter for them to bear fruit. The other is the idea that under the influence of wine, one could feel possessed by a greater power. Unlike the other gods Dionysus was not only outside his believers but, also within them. At these times a man might be greater then himself and do works he otherwise could not.
The festival for Dionysus is in the spring when the leaves begin to reappear on the vine. It became one of the most important events of the year. It's focus became the theater. Most of the great Greek plays were initially written to be performed at the feast of Dionysus. All who took part writers, actors, spectators were regarded as scared servants of Dionysus during the festival.
So, either I'm not getting information detailed enough, or the similarities weren't prominent in the myth, or someone is stretching the truth?
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Post by Ginnie on Aug 17, 2007 20:40:52 GMT -4
This site disputes the similarities: tektonics.org/copycat/osy.htmlI don't know if its dependable research, but it sure saves me a lot of time and effort if it is!
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Post by Ginnie on Aug 17, 2007 21:01:35 GMT -4
This site has lots of translations of ancient Egyptian documents. So far I've haven't come across anything resembling the so called Jesus-Osiris-Horus similarities, but there's a lot of stuff here to wade through. www.touregypt.net/literature.htmWhere are the mythmakers getting their information from?
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Post by Dead Hoosiers on Aug 17, 2007 21:07:28 GMT -4
Semiramis, the wife of Nimrod and mother of Tammuz is mentioned in the Bible as "the queen of heaven." It was Nimrod who founded Babel. Their religion continued on after their deaths, but their names were changed by their followers in order to protect themselves. The reason this family knew of the messianic prophecies and were able to incorporate them into their religion is because Nimrod was the son of Cush, the son of Ham, the son of Noah, who walked with God. You can read about it in Genesis. Another name for Tammuz is Osirus. Another name for Semiramis is Ishtar. But there are many others.
With just this information you should be able to research the topic more thoroughly. You can also read Alexander Hislop's The Two Babylons online.
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Post by Ginnie on Aug 17, 2007 21:16:12 GMT -4
DH, what I would like to see is information in ancients documents that has the myth similarities. And the documents would have to have been written pre-Jesus. Preferably not some 11th century Arabian translation or whatever, but original documents. There's lots of Egyptian texts, Sumerian but not a lot of Greek originals as far as I know.
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Post by Bill Thompson on Aug 18, 2007 16:50:32 GMT -4
I think that if Jesus Christ -- as a human being, that is -- did not exist, his detractors would have taken advantage of it. Jesus Christ is mentioned by name --albeit unfavorably -- in the ( oh man, I forget the name of that book ) book of Jewish law that was written at the time of his death. If he was never real, they would know and would have said it, I believe. There is also the matter of the fact that Peter and Paul and a few other of the disciples went out and started churches. Peter and Paul started the church in Greece. They were obviously real. Now, did they just invent Jesus Christ and went out to put their lives on the line for no financial gain to start Christian churches? This is really difficult to believe. I think you are picking and choosing some things that suggest that Christ might not have existed and not considering other things. I have been to Greece and have seen places where Peter and Paul made speeches. I find it difficult to believe they were just lying for the hell of it. Remember, Peter knew Christ personally. This sounds too much like a conspiracy theory and, like the Apollo Hoax itself, too many people would have to be in on the scam for it to be real conspiracy.
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Post by Ginnie on Aug 19, 2007 15:43:47 GMT -4
I think you're referring to Josephus who wrote The Wars and Antiquities. He does mention Jesus but the references are dubious. Most scholars think that they were put in centuries later. We don't have any really early original documents of Josephus.
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Aug 19, 2007 18:05:01 GMT -4
According to LDS theology Adam was told about Jesus' eventual coming. All the similarities in other myths are therefore ultimately derived from the original knowledge Adam had.
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Post by Ginnie on Aug 19, 2007 18:24:37 GMT -4
So did the myths 'leak out' from Adam?
One thing that I've noticed is that the myth-similarities-claimers do not provide sources for their information. Usually, in any scholarly work, footnotes link the information to certain papyrus etc. I've yet to find this information on the websites of the Jesus as Myth types. That in itself is a glaring indication of the quality of the research behind their claims. Can anyone point me to a Jesus as Myth website that does provide good sources for their claims? The flood is one myth does have reliable sources - ancient cuniform tablets but of course doesn't relate to the Jesus Myth. I'm pursuing this more than my normal threads because for years I've been interested in the historical Jesus. I have many books about that, and they all basically agree that He (he?) did exist. Even one written by a Jewish author does not doubt this. While it may be possible that the Gospel writers incorporated common myths that people were familiar wiith in the first century, I doubt if it exists on the level of the Jesus Myth promoters. So far, I have the Gospels themselves as more reliable documents than anything else on this issue.
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Aug 19, 2007 18:38:31 GMT -4
In a word, yes. Adam passed his knowledge on to his descendents but after a few generations they were no longer perfectly transmitted and so large parts of them became lost or worked themselves into a sort of "cultural unconsciousness", resurfacing from time to time in different cultures with different names and details.
I'm sure if you looked hard enough you would find many books that claim Jesus is not a historical figure. The whole problem with research into "what myth came first" is that it must rely on secondary sources. The primary sources (if there ever were any written primary sources for a given myth) simply haven't survived.
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