Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Sept 19, 2007 0:38:16 GMT -4
Jason, This is very interesting and will take some time for me to ponder and think about. I appreciate your going in to this to some depth. Thank you. There is a lot in this video. Why would they be motivated to lie so? Well, off the top of my head the more sensational they make the video the more copies they'll sell. Secondly, there is obviously an element of revenge for Mr. Decker, Lillian, Art, and Thelma Greer. Mr. Decker and Art were excommunicated, Lillian's religious group claimed they were teaching straight Mormonism and treated her horribly, and Mrs. Greer's ancestor committed a truly abominable crime and then tried to blame it on the church. Thirdly, they are following the rule of all propoganda - the more brazen the lie and the more often repeated the more people will believe it may be true, because no one would make up such stories.
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Sept 19, 2007 0:40:01 GMT -4
Didn't you say in the other Mormon thread that this video is pretty accurate? Do you mean Bill or me? Because what I said was "the next one on "Blood Atonement" is pretty much a total piece of fabrication."
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Post by Dead Hoosiers on Sept 19, 2007 0:41:35 GMT -4
I could be asleep. I was referring to Decker's "The God Makers." Didn't you, Jason, on the "Book of Mormon" thread, say that it was pretty accurate?
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Post by Dead Hoosiers on Sept 19, 2007 0:43:32 GMT -4
Bill,
A Hoosier is a native of Indiana. Gus Grissom is a dead hoosier. I was thinking of him when I picked my name. My avatar is from the memorial to the astronauts of Apollo 1.
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Sept 19, 2007 0:44:34 GMT -4
I may have said some parts of The God Makers were accurate, but I seem to recall also writing a list of all the inaccuracies in it too. There's fifty pages on that thread. This is a different video in any case.
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Post by Dead Hoosiers on Sept 19, 2007 0:45:33 GMT -4
I may have said some parts of The God Makers were accurate, but I seem to recall also writing a list of all the inaccuracies in it too. There's fifty pages on that thread. This is a different video in any case. Okay. I remember now. And awake.
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Post by Bill Thompson on Sept 19, 2007 9:03:08 GMT -4
Jason,
Who first coined the term "anti-Mormon"? Where does it come from and what does it really mean?
You used it 3 times in your response to the video. I have only seen you use this expression. Each time I read it I find it to be an unfair expression. But then again, I do not know what is really behind it. Still, it seems like a way of labeling someone without addressing what they say about a specific matter. "Oh, don't listen to them, they are notorious anti-Mormons because in a previous insident..." It does not mean what they are saying now is correct or incorrect. Charles Manson might have something valid to say about the LAPD. It is not fair for us to say, "don't listen to Charles Manson because he is a convicted murderer and cult leader so everything he has to say is invalid"
Another thing I have seen you do from time to time is to use documentation FROM the church to defend the church. This letter from the church that defends the church is one example of this. I just plainly do not understand that at all. You think of who says something when deciding if what they say is correct. That does not make any sense to me.
If NASA publishes a finding about something, I want to know how they came about that finding. If the police say someone is guilty, I want to know how they came about that conclusion. And me asking these questions does not mean I am "anti-NASA" and it does not mean I am "anti-police".
If someone was to use terms like "anti-NASA" or "anti-police" against me, I would naturally be suspicious of them and think that they have something to hide.
Do you see my point? (and that is not just a rhetorical question)
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Post by Bill Thompson on Sept 19, 2007 9:04:28 GMT -4
Jason, This is very interesting and will take some time for me to ponder and think about. I appreciate your going in to this to some depth. Thank you. There is a lot in this video. Why would they be motivated to lie so? Well, off the top of my head the more sensational they make the video the more copies they'll sell. Secondly, there is obviously an element of revenge for Mr. Decker, Lillian, Art, and Thelma Greer. Mr. Decker and Art were excommunicated, Before or after the video? Before or after they started complaining? Were their complaints valid? What lead to their excommunication?
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Sept 19, 2007 11:31:23 GMT -4
Who first coined the term "anti-Mormon"? Where does it come from and what does it really mean? Hmm. I'm not sure who first coined it. Wikipedia says that it first appeared in 1840 as part of a title of the periodical the Anti-Mormon Almanac which was written by critics of the church. Apparently it was also later the name of a self-identifying party in Illinois, and various other groups have described themselves as anti-Mormon from time to time. Sounds plausible to me. It is a very old term. What it means today is a person who is a vocal critic of the LDS church and the doctrines of Mormonism, often with the implication that they make a habit or profession of it. Come now, I just Googled it and got 206,000 responses. Unfair how? By it I mean that the indivdiuals I am speaking of are vocal critics of the LDS church. They would probably agree with me that that is their position, although they might also hasten to add that they think Mormons themselves are great people - it's just the church they hate. I can see where you're coming from. That's why I didn't stop at labeling Mr. Decker an anti-mormon - I also explained where his video is wrong and where it attempts to twist the facts to serve Mr. Decker's agenda. No, but it is fair to say "Charles Manson is an insane psychopath. It's probably a good idea to ask for corroboration or substantial evidence of anything he has to say about the LAPD." If you want to judge the Church it's only fair to hear the Church's side of an issue - to listen to the Church at least as much as you are listening to its critics. In any case, what can the Church do to prove that it never taught or believed a paricular doctrine other than to say "we never taught or believed this particular doctrine"? I don't see why. Anti-police sounds a bit harsh, but there's probably a lot of people who wouldn't mind the label anti-NASA. Are anti-abortionists hiding something? How about the anti-drug crowd? There's more than 18 million hits on Google for "anti-war" - are they hiding something?
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Sept 19, 2007 12:02:40 GMT -4
Secondly, there is obviously an element of revenge for Mr. Decker, Lillian, Art, and Thelma Greer. Mr. Decker and Art were excommunicated, Before or after the video? Before or after they started complaining? Were their complaints valid? What lead to their excommunication? Well, the video acknowledges that these people were all former members of either the LDS church or Fundamentalist groups (in the case of "Lillian"), so definitely before the video (although I'm only taking the video's word for this, so I could be wrong if it is). Ed Decker was excommunicated in 1972 and this video was produced in '92, so he definitely was not a member when he produced it either. People aren't excommunicated from the church for complaining. They are excommunicated for practicing doctrines not sanctioned by the church, such as polygamy; serious sins, such as adultery, murder, or other serious crimes; or for preaching against the church in a public manner, and only then after receiving a warning from church leaders. Excommunication is intended both to inform the person of the seriousness of his acts and to spare him further condemnation by refusing him communion. If the person repents he can usually be re-baptized and re-admitted to the church. I'm not sure what Art's "complaint" was, but it seems he wanted a return to polygamy and had started his own polygamist group (he boasts at having "five apostles" already) - obviously that doesn't work in the church. Lillian was never a member of the church to begin with. I'm not sure what Thelma Greer's complaints would have been, but she obviously believes her great-grandfather more than the Church. Perhaps it was familial loyalty? Also she may have had herself removed from church records rather than been excommunicated, or she may have not been a member of the church to begin with. I simply don't know too much about her situation. Ed Decker was a convert to the church in the fifties, but was inactive years before he was excommunicated. His reasons for becomming so seem to be connected to the failure of his first marriage (his wife is what brought him into contact with the church in the first place, as she was an inactive Mormon) and his son being born deaf, which he seems to see as a sign from God that he was on the wrong path. Once he began preaching against the church he was excommunicated.
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Post by Ginnie on Sept 19, 2007 18:06:47 GMT -4
DH, I was generalizing a bit with my remarks. I wasn't specifically targeting Christians or christians. They could be Muslims, Hindus , Buddhists whatever. The point is, that all religions proclaim to be true, but still people are tortured, killed or treated badly. Yes, I know your views of the RC Church. But that's your opinion, I'm sure a priest would tell me a different story. I've heard excuses from people I know that go like this, "yes that happened but it was Church that did it" or "Yes that happened, but it wasn't the church but people who weren't real Christians", Theres lots of excuses for bad behavior. But I hope you can understand the dilemma that people searching for God have when confronted by all these theologies and doctrines. I mean, who to believe? My soul has to respond positively to any faith, and if that doesn't happen I'm not just going to cast my lot with a random choice. I've seen and heard and read too much tragedy done in the name of religion: doesn't seem to work for me.
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Post by Bill Thompson on Sept 19, 2007 19:19:05 GMT -4
If someone was to tell me, "don't listen to those people, they are just anti-war" I would be suspicious of the person who told me this. It would seem he wanted to brush them off and not listen to them or consider for a moment they had anything of value to say. See what I mean? I do not mean you are wrong. I admit this is a subject alien to me and the things that seem odd I want to comment on.
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Post by Bill Thompson on Sept 19, 2007 19:23:18 GMT -4
But this way of talking about people is what is strange to me. For example, I never hear Republicans call Democrats "anti-Republicans" and I never hear Democrats call Republicans "anti-Democrats" and so on.
What I was trying to get at is this. Is there something else this all means? I remember your comment on deamons left to roam the earth. So when I read "anti-mormon" I wonder if you think these people are influenced by ... whatever... some thing bad and unseen.
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Post by Ginnie on Sept 19, 2007 19:35:08 GMT -4
What's so suspicious about being anti-war? Anti just means you're opposed to something.
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Al Johnston
"Cheer up!" they said, "It could be worse!" So I did, and it was.
Posts: 1,453
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Post by Al Johnston on Sept 20, 2007 6:07:49 GMT -4
I never hear Republicans call Democrats "anti-Republicans" and I never hear Democrats call Republicans "anti-Democrats" and so on. Be fair: to anyone outside the United States, the two are almost indistinguishable...
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