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Post by echnaton on Dec 16, 2007 3:04:48 GMT -4
Obviously that is intended to be funny..... And it succeeded in being funny, Thanks BertLs.
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reynoldbot
Jupiter
A paper-white mask of evil.
Posts: 790
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Post by reynoldbot on Dec 17, 2007 6:36:39 GMT -4
So where would the state draw the line if it had to choose whether a mother could abort a foetus?
-If the mother had a low probability of survival? -And how low is low enough? -If the foetus had a low probability of survival? -And how low is low enough? -If the foetus had a high risk of having a birth defect? -And how high is too high, and what kind of defect is too defective? -If the mother was mentally incapable of taking care of the child? -If the mother told the court she would harm the baby? -If the mother was financially incapable of caring for the child? -If the mother showed signs of negligence in her daily life? -If the mother was too young? -And how young is too young? -If the mother just did not want the child?
Where does the state draw the line here? What if a court decided a mother could not be granted an abortion even if both the mother and child had a low survival probability?
A potential human being is not a human being.
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Al Johnston
"Cheer up!" they said, "It could be worse!" So I did, and it was.
Posts: 1,453
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Post by Al Johnston on Dec 17, 2007 7:51:51 GMT -4
IIRC the legal position in the UK is that abortion is legal up to 24 weeks' gestation, with two doctors signing off that it is necessary for the health & well-being of the mother. In practical terms, this is more or less 'on demand'. The overwhelming majority of abortions are carried out as soon as practicable after the unwanted pregnancy is detected, with very few taking place after 20 weeks, which is becoming a de facto time limit. The law is periodically amended to adjust the time limit in the light of advancing neonatal resuscitation technology and practice, so this may soon be the de jure limit too.
There have been a few cases where women made Wards of Court through mental incapacity have had abortions: usually with accompanying scandal, as the pregnancy indicates all is not as it should be in the care process.
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Dec 17, 2007 11:46:47 GMT -4
So where would the state draw the line if it had to choose whether a mother could abort a foetus? Would you like to re-post this to a new thread? I'll discuss it with you, but I think the subject deserves its own thread. This subject doesn't have much to do with Christmas.
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reynoldbot
Jupiter
A paper-white mask of evil.
Posts: 790
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Post by reynoldbot on Dec 18, 2007 5:38:53 GMT -4
So where would the state draw the line if it had to choose whether a mother could abort a foetus? Would you like to re-post this to a new thread? I'll discuss it with you, but I think the subject deserves its own thread. This subject doesn't have much to do with Christmas. woof. I'm not sure I'm up for another 30-page knockout session. I just got done with finals! But don't abortions just get you right into the Christmas spirit? I think we should just agree to disagree and skip the usual "30 page debate with absolutely no headway made" deal. You can declare victory if you'd like.
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Dec 18, 2007 11:56:10 GMT -4
Victory!
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Post by LunarOrbit on Dec 18, 2007 13:19:29 GMT -4
Victory! One might even say mission accomplished. Declaring victory is a lot easier than actually achieving it.
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Dec 18, 2007 13:22:47 GMT -4
He said I could.
I'll pick up the subject again after Christmas.
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Post by BertL on Dec 18, 2007 13:45:33 GMT -4
Man, I'm really looking forwards to the Christmas breakfast we get on school next Friday.
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Dec 18, 2007 14:15:39 GMT -4
Have I caught you in a "Dutchism" Bert? "On school" in English would imply you're eating the breakfast on top of the school, i.e. on the roof.
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Post by Ginnie on Dec 18, 2007 22:08:33 GMT -4
Victory! Congratulations! Does that mean that a fetus does have rights now? If it could be that easy...
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Dec 18, 2007 23:20:47 GMT -4
It was that easy to take them away in the first place. But I don't sit on the Supreme Court.
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Post by Ginnie on Dec 18, 2007 23:40:22 GMT -4
It was that easy to take them away in the first place. But I don't sit on the Supreme Court. I have really mixed feelings on this issue. Its one of those issues where I personally feel a certain way, but couldn't force my view on somebody else. I believe that if society wants to legalize abortion, then so be it. But I wish another alternative would be taken. I don't feel I have the right to tell a pregnant woman that she can't have an abortion. There are a few situations where it should be allowed (some were mentioned previously), but in our society it just seems such an acceptable method of birth control. I wish people would think more before they committed the 'act' in the first place. I'm not talking about women who were raped or whose health is in danger here... I think why my feelings are so ambiguous on this is because of my personal history: In 1958 my mother was sixteen years old and had me out of wedlock. I was raised by my grandmother, and I thought that she was my mother, and that my mother was my sister. When I was eleven, my real mother told me the truth. Her then husband basically told her that she had to tell me because she cried herself to sleep every night. On one hand, if it had happened in 1975 instead of 1958, there would have been less stigma attached to her. But on the other hand, in 1975 she would have probably had an abortion because that would be the easiest thing to do. And I don't think anyone should have the right to make that decision that I should die because of that reason - being 'easier' that is.
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Post by gillianren on Dec 19, 2007 2:46:37 GMT -4
On one hand, if it had happened in 1975 instead of 1958, there would have been less stigma attached to her. But on the other hand, in 1975 she would have probably had an abortion because that would be the easiest thing to do. And I don't think anyone should have the right to make that decision that I should die because of that reason - being 'easier' that is. There's many different kinds of easy. In the end, I chose adoption, but I am grateful that it was, in fact, a choice. In some ways, yeah, abortion would have been easier. (Proper use of birth control would have been more sensible, and I'm a big, big fan of teaching it!) On the other hand, I would now be wondering, and for the rest of my life be wondering, what would have happened to my child. Then again, that would have been true under old adoption laws, too. I currently have no legal right to my daughter. Her mom and dad can take her away to another state--another country--without telling me. When she's 18, it's her choice, but until then, it's all theirs. If they decide they don't want me to be part of her life, for any reason, they can, and I can't do a thing about it. And there's eight more years that I've got that hanging over my head. I'm not a fan of abortion. I think that proper birth control availability and education is vital. I think the adoption laws ought to reflect that it's way, way healthier for children to know about their birth families than not. (Actually, it's way, way healthier for everyone concerned. My daughter's mom knows that, the minute my daughter tries to pull the "my real mom" schtick, if she ever does, that my daughter is to come talk to me about what her life with me would have been like.) If you can afford to raise a child alone, if you choose to raise a child alone, have at. If you can't, use birth control. If it fails, and it does sometimes, you should have options to keep an unwanted child from being born into a bad situation. (And absitinence is, indeed, a form of birth control, and the best one. But it's not the only one.)
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reynoldbot
Jupiter
A paper-white mask of evil.
Posts: 790
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Post by reynoldbot on Dec 19, 2007 7:07:35 GMT -4
Victory! Hurray! That was way easier than an actual debate.
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