Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Nov 23, 2007 18:35:06 GMT -4
So praying to aliens is weird or unusual because few people do it, but praying to God is normal because lots of people do it. Got it. Sanity is determined by the number of people who agree with you, is that it? Nessus in Larry Niven's Ringworld said "the majority is always sane, Louis."
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Post by wdmundt on Nov 24, 2007 0:33:33 GMT -4
What one does with one's own brain is one's own business.
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Post by lionking on Nov 24, 2007 13:05:14 GMT -4
I didn't want to enter a debate on religion, but.. aliens are not of a religion known, that worships God or other gods.. that people are raised on. It is something absurd and I remember people here making fun of Aulid bcz they think such weird things exist without Aulis praying to them, but you refuse acknowledging it is weird that an astronaut is doing so. Praying to something you know wouldn't answer you is almost more weird and almost statue worshipping
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Post by JayUtah on Nov 24, 2007 13:52:13 GMT -4
I didn't want to enter a debate on religion, but..
But you started one, so there it is.
aliens are not of a religion known, that worships God or other gods..that people are raised on.
That's a narrow view of religion. Some people believe in aliens just as fervently as others believe in God. Sociologists can see the connection. Why can't you?
...but you refuse acknowledging it is weird that an astronaut is doing so.
That's because we don't necessarily agree that it's weird. And we gave reasons. You're just begging the question and throwing around your own personal definitions and value judgments as if everyone should naturally follow them.
Praying to something you know wouldn't answer you is almost more weird and almost statue worshipping
Silent, directed meditation is not "statue worshiping." Good grief, you're really determined to put your foot in your mouth on this one.
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Post by lionking on Nov 24, 2007 14:21:23 GMT -4
bcz I don' t think it is normal for an educated person as himself to pray for aliens. believing in the presence of aliens is something and praying for them is something else.
I am not saying there is no people who believe in aliens. I am just saying they are stupid to pray to them. Wh ycan't you see that? Sociologists recognize also that there are people who pray to the sea and to nature. Does this make it a smart step to you?If you r putting ppl who pray to a reasonable entity [in the sense that this force is the source of everything and of truth] - if you put them as those who pray to aliens and to the statues, then it is your choice. To me, it is not the same.
do you mean when they pray to gods? this is a religion known to humanity since a long time, and no it doesn't make sense to me. it has hinduism philosophy behind it and that these gods are responsible at least for something in this world. I can see how Dr Musgrave can follow such thing, but not praying to aliens.. whom he doesn't expect anything from ....come on...
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Post by AtomicDog on Nov 24, 2007 15:53:20 GMT -4
This has been an interesting thread, but I don't see how it pertains to the Apollo Hoax Theory.
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Post by lionking on Nov 24, 2007 16:00:54 GMT -4
you r right in that. maybe I should have put it in General discussion.
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Post by Jason Thompson on Nov 24, 2007 16:31:28 GMT -4
bcz I don' t think it is normal for an educated person as himself to pray for aliens. Who made you the supreme arbiter of normality? And once again, he recognises that it is probably absurd and quirky, but does it anyway. I still can't see what is unreasonable about that.
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Post by lionking on Nov 24, 2007 16:50:34 GMT -4
you are free to say what you want. I don't mean insanity as is , but some lack of reason... a "childish" act ..for a person so smart as he.
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Post by JayUtah on Nov 24, 2007 18:12:33 GMT -4
bcz I don' t think it is normal for an educated person as himself to pray for aliens.
Begging the question. And you're interpreting "pray" very narrowly, not in the way Musgrave seems to use the term. Did you read at all what he said?
I am just saying they are stupid to pray to them. Wh ycan't you see that?
Because I'm not interpreting "pray" narrowmindedly. The activity known as prayer to some is known as meditation to others, or simply the focusing of one's thoughts.
Sociologists recognize also that there are people who pray to the sea and to nature. Does this make it a smart step to you?
You miss the point. I'm not here to judge the validity of someone else's spiritual beliefs, but it seems you are.
Sociologists recognize that ufology and religion play essentially the same role in society. You want to consider them irrevocably different.
it has hinduism philosophy behind it and that these gods are responsible at least for something in this world.
LOL! So it's okay to pray to Hindu gods because they are "known" to have done something, but it's wrong to pray to space aliens? That's the most ridiculous, presumptive line of reasoning I've ever heard. You're speaking as if the deeds of the Hindu gods are objectively recognized.
...come on...
Begging the question. When everyone disagrees with you, that's a sign you should examine your presumptions.
You started off this thread trying to throw mud on Story Musgrave's reputation. Why should we consider that you aren't simply out to get him, no matter what the actual truth?
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Post by Ginnie on Nov 24, 2007 19:26:05 GMT -4
lionking, you keep digger a deeper hole for yourself. I don't know if it is a communication problem or what, but you seem to be suggesting that people who believe in 'weird' ideas are stupid. What if all the atheists and agnostics on this forum applied that to Christianity, Islam or Hinduism? I find all religions are 'weird' in some way. I wouldn't normally ask someone their personal beliefs, but maybe you can tell us some of yours and we can pick them apart and make fun of them?
I hate for it to seem that we are all ganging up on you, but the point is: People have different belief systems. Not all of those concepts are present in 'organized' religions. Find two Catholics even that believe exactly the same thing. My grandmother thought that the worst thing in the world was to be a Protestant. Given that most of their concepts are similar to Catholicism, you wouldn't think there would be much conflict between the two beliefs. But for her there certainly was. Protestants were pagans and were going to Hell. Seems silly now. In our little town where I grew up in Newfoundland the Protestant used to have their annual Orange Parade. The Catholics farmers in the area would get out their rifles and block the road in front of our Catholic Church so that the parade wouldn't pass in front of it. If I would mention the concept of reincarnation to my older relatives, they would think of it as paganism or heathenism etc. It's just an idea they aren't familiar with.
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Post by Czero 101 on Nov 25, 2007 1:17:47 GMT -4
I tried hard not to wade into this quagmire (giggity giggity... opps, sorry... Family Guy moment ), because for me, religious debates of almost any nature generally end badly. In my life, I've been on both extremes. I was brought up Roman Catholic and when I was young, I went to a private RC elementary school, went to church all the time, was an altar boy for many years and said my prayers every night. When I was in my teens and twenties, I was essentially an atheist because I couldn't reconcile the whole "bible as truth" thing that was being thrust at me and I couldn't believe that a so-called "benevolent god" that I was taught to believe in would let the things that were (and in a lot of cases, still are) happening to the world happen. As I have grown to almost forty, I have come to the realization that there must be some "higher being" or more intelligent form of life in existence somewhere, because in all honesty, if we're it, heaven help us all... (pun fully intended...) I don't care if someone believes in Buddha, Mohammad, Jesus or the Devil himself. You wanna go door-to-door Saturday and Sunday mornings and try to pitch Jehovah and the Watchtower to people, be my guest - just don't be surprised when I slam the door in your face. You wanna bang two bricks together under the full moon, painted purple, wearing a tin-foil pyramid on your head and praise Gaia, go right ahead. Heck, I'll even help paint that part of your back that you normally can't reach on your own. Just don't force your views on me, don't try to convince me that your god is "the one god", and that because I don't believe what you believe that I am going to burn in hell for all eternity with all the other blasphemers, infidels and {insert your opposing political party here} members. And for God's sake - yep, punning again - don't tell me I'm wrong or insane for believing what I want to believe. Dr. Musgrave wants to pray to or meditate about aliens. So what? Is he hurting anyone by doing so? Is he trying to convert us all before the Mothership returns? No... he's not doing any of that. Lion, you can believe whatever you want to believe and have whatever opinions you want to have, and if push came to shove, I would fight for your right to do so. But just because we don't believe the same way you do, or have the same opinion you do, that does not make us - or Dr. Musgrave - any less sane or intelligent than you or anyone else. In fact, if you can come to a point in your faith where you can let people believe what they believe without prejudice and false assumptions, all the while believing what ever it is that gives you comfort in the dark night, then perhaps you are more intelligent than most of the rest of the religious fanatics in the world who have been slaughtering people for millennia in the name of their own ignorance, bigotry and their "one, true god". Cz
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Nov 25, 2007 1:34:06 GMT -4
Every faith has aspects of it that seem very strange to the outsider. You can't judge the validity of a faith based solely on whether it seems "normal" to you, becuase chances are your faith (or unfaith) seems just as strange to others.
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Post by lionking on Nov 25, 2007 5:27:16 GMT -4
the more I READ IT, THE MORE IT GETS WEIRDER TO ME THAT AN INTELLIGENT, SCIENTIFIC MAN WOUD DO SO. I know that sociology says this exists in society. there are many thing that exist in society. it doesn't make them "norma for scientific, intelligent people".
if you are raised on something, it is different than going about inventing things to believe in. I fail to understand how can't you see this Musgrave act ridiculous.
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Post by gwiz on Nov 25, 2007 8:41:19 GMT -4
Read his "prayer" quote again:
He is comparing trying to communicate with ETs to prayer. In other words, in both cases you are sending a message to something more powerful than yourself, but whose existance is unproven. I don't see that he is equating attempting to communicate with ETs with religion in any wider sense, nor is he saying that praying is the actual technique he is using. Previous attempts have involved radio messages sent into space and physical messages attached to space probes.
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