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Post by Ginnie on Feb 20, 2008 17:18:27 GMT -4
I don't know that PhantomWolf is referring to Buddhism in particular. It sounds like the vague sort of new-age reincarnation beliefs that some people have rather than Buddhism per se.
You mean there is some easy maintenance karma belief out there? I'll have to check that out. ;D
The new age stuff kills me. Sort of a Hollywood Buddism.
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Post by trevor on Feb 20, 2008 17:37:49 GMT -4
And this is exactly why I have a major problem here because one of the commandments was thou shalt not kill. It didn't say thou shalt not kill unless you were being attacked by an axis of evil.
Jesus also said to turn the other cheek.
In other words and from my understanding. We should actually allow an enemy to attack and invade us kill our families and leave the rest to God. Also according to the OT God gave the Isrelites open slather to destroy entire cities and leave no one alive after the commandments were given. It makes no sense to me what so ever.
My Grandfather was a conciencious objecter in WW2, he had to go to court to defend his position. He told them that they could send him to war if they had to but that his beliefs would not allow him to kill anyone and that he would be useless to them. He asked to be put into a position where he could help and he was put in search and rescue in London during the blitz. Now to me that is a Christian attitude. His life was in just as much danger as a soldier on the front line. he was a pacifist not a coward. To this day (he is 94 in April) he has never spoken about the horror he went through.
So you see thou shalt not kill, means just that no ifs or buts. This would also include the death penalty.
Now the question could be asked if I killed someone 'bad' to save someone good and risk damnation(for a better word) would that act in itself be seen as spiritual sacrifice and be forgiven?
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Jason
Pluto
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Post by Jason on Feb 20, 2008 18:00:16 GMT -4
The commandment is better translated as "thou shalt not murder." The same Law of Moses that had the Ten Commandments as its basis also specified the death penalty for several offenses. The two are compatible because the commandment is not to "murder" - in other words, to kill unjustly or for personal gain. There are circumstances where killing is justifiable. And there are several war leaders in the Old Testament who are also prophets - Moses, Joshua, and David among them.
Jesus did say that we should love and bless our enemies, and turn the other cheek when we are struck. He also said "But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one," and "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." Strict pacifism doesn't seem to be necessary for a Christian, and we are not requried to lie down and do nothing for our own defense. The LDS scriptures clarify the issue further for those of my faith.
Your grandfather should be commended for his committment to his principles, however, and for his willingness to serve.
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Post by trevor on Feb 20, 2008 18:17:17 GMT -4
Under what translation would it say murder?
I must say I did go to an LDS seminar once with my wife and mother in law and was impressed by the guys who spoke. It seams to be a compasionate and sensible faith. A lady had a son who had killed himself and was concerned for his spiritual well being. It was explained to her that to have done such a thing would have meant he was not well mentally and this would be taken into consideration at his judgement. Not burn in hell as many other faiths would put it. It gave her great comfort. I thought that was a nice way to put her mind at ease. I will add that I am still having trouble with the book of mormon though, I have it but can't seem to get the urge to read it yet.
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Jason
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Post by Jason on Feb 20, 2008 18:33:39 GMT -4
According to Wikipedia, the versions that use "murder" include the New International Version, New American Standard Bible, New English Bible, New King James, New Revised Standard, and English Standard versions. Apparently nearly all the newer Jewish translations also use "murder".
Hebrew for kill is "harog" while "murder" is "retzach". "Retzach" is used in Exodus.
The LDS church uses the King James version, which reads "kill", but footnotes it to note that "murder" is an alternate translation.
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Post by trevor on Feb 20, 2008 18:44:58 GMT -4
I really need to do some serious study into this, I have realised that many of my misconceptions and doubts are based on assumptions and word of mouth from other people. Thanks Jason, I am swaying a little
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Post by wdmundt on Feb 20, 2008 18:58:01 GMT -4
Of course, a god can do anything he or she wants. Any outcome is within reach of a god. A god could achieve the same outcome with or without involving murder -- so it must be a choice to allow murder to happen. If he or she wants to kill or murder (whatever you want to call it), then you can call that god a murderous god. That is certainly what the god of the Old Testament was.
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Jason
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Post by Jason on Feb 20, 2008 18:58:37 GMT -4
Well, don't take Wikipedia as your only information source. I just used it because it was convenient.
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Jason
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Post by Jason on Feb 20, 2008 19:06:25 GMT -4
Of course, a god can do anything he or she wants. Any outcome is within reach of a god. Actually, according to LDS doctrine there are definitely some things God cannot (or will not) do. Murder is one of them. Overriding free will by preventing all murders is another.
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Post by The Supreme Canuck on Feb 20, 2008 19:19:14 GMT -4
Well, I'm going to enter this one late. I voted "no." I'm an atheist.
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Post by gillianren on Feb 20, 2008 19:25:27 GMT -4
Under what translation would it say murder? Practically anything that isn't King James? (The King James Bible has the most beautiful language. It is, however, an appalling translation with many bits that were skewed to fit James's own prejudices.) Compassionate, yes. Sensible . . . . Read a little of the history of it not written by Mormons. Heck, according to the Mormons I knew in college, my dad's in Mormon Hell, because he was, however briefly, Mormon--and only those who reject the faith go to Mormon Hell. The current stance of the Catholic church is also that those who commit suicide are in severe mental distress, and those in severe mental distress cannot commit sin, because they cannot form the requisite free will. Catholics are also allowed to think of the Bible as an allegory. Now, I'm not Catholic, and I don't suggest that anyone convert, because the Catholics have some pretty serious problems of their own--and that's even before you get into the pedophilia thing. However, I think any analysis of any religion should also contain how they appear to those outside it. I'm not quite as "outside" Catholicism as a lot of other people, but I do know when they're making sense.
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Post by trevor on Feb 20, 2008 19:30:15 GMT -4
Yeh I definitely don't know enough, looks like religious studies for me.
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Post by Ginnie on Feb 20, 2008 19:32:38 GMT -4
Of course, a god can do anything he or she wants. Any outcome is within reach of a god. Actually, according to LDS doctrine there are definitely some things God cannot (or will not) do. Murder is one of them. Overriding free will by preventing all murders is another. If I dug out parts of the Bible that shows God murdering, or commanding people to murder innocent children, will you explain it away as taken out of context? Maybe, in that culture in those times it was acceptable?
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Post by Ginnie on Feb 20, 2008 19:34:49 GMT -4
Of course, a god can do anything he or she wants. Any outcome is within reach of a god. A god could achieve the same outcome with or without involving murder -- so it must be a choice to allow murder to happen. If he or she wants to kill or murder (whatever you want to call it), then you can call that god a murderous god. That is certainly what the god of the Old Testament was. I would have to agree, despite the explanations and excuses by Christians.
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Jason
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Post by Jason on Feb 20, 2008 19:44:08 GMT -4
Compassionate, yes. Sensible . . . . Read a little of the history of it not written by Mormons. Actually, it's very difficult to find a comprehensive history of the Mormons/LDS Church that was written by someone who didn't have an agenda, etiher pro or con. And there is a lot of con "history" out there that is flat out wrong. It seems that anyone who goes into a great deal of detail on the Church forms an opinion one way or the other. My advice if you want to know more about the LDS Church is to ask me. I don't know everything but can usually find out, and I can certainly give you the LDS perspective. Either you're mis-remembering or they didn't know their doctrine. It is a doctrinal point that someone who has rejected a sure knowledge of the truthfulness of the Gospel - someone who knows to the bottom of their soul who Jesus is and what his mission is and still rejects him - can find no forgiveness. Note that this isn't necessarily the same thing as rejecting the LDS Church. It's also true that only an extremely small number of people have ever had the sure knowledge of the gospel necessary to be in this sort of danger, and your dad almost certainly wasn't one of them. I don't even have the sure knowledge neccessary either, though I have been a life long Mormon and certainly have strong faith in my religion.
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