Dr. Neville Jones, Christians, & Apollo

[LenQ]

My compliments on a superb website. Thorough and rigorous. As one with training in the sciences (my undergrad degree is in biology), I appreciate the detailed information therein.

As one who is also a Christian believer, I'd like to express disappointment that someone like Dr. Neville Jones would attempt to assert that the Apollo missions were fraudulent from a faith-based motivation. I would hate to think that the creators of the Moon Base Clavius site (or any viewer of the site) would be tempted to think that most (or even many) Christians believe the Apollo program was a hoax. (Not that the website presents Dr. Jones' views as at all representative of the Christian community.)

Let me reassure any comers that in my 40-odd years of experience in the Christian community, those I've come across who believe the moon landings were a hoax are few and far between indeed. And I've been a part of the Christian community all around the world. (My work has required me to live in many places for varying periods of time.)

The vast, vast majority of Christian believers, even (perhaps especially) evangelical, fundamentalist believers like myself, see no inconsistency between faith in Christ and "faith" in the veracity of the Apollo lunar missions, or of the US space program in general for that matter.

In fact, we celebrate the spectacular accomplishments of Apollo, from the national level to the level of the many individuals who made the achievements possible.

It really is extraordinary what was accomplished. Hopefully, Apollo 17 won't forever be the final American lunar mission.

Thank-you for providing a fascinating and important website.

[Al Johnston]

I wouldn't worry: there are enough christians here for the rest of us to realise that the majority are quite sane Apollo-wise ;D

[JayUtah]

I am also a Christian, and I know that Jones does not speak for my beliefs.

[PhantomWolf]

And as Jay -is- the creater of Clavius, I really really doubt "that the creators of the Moon Base Clavius site ... would be tempted to think that most (or even many) Christians believe the Apollo program was a hoax."

[Martina W.]

phantomwolf said:

And as Jay -is- the creater of Clavius, I really really doubt "that the creators of the Moon Base Clavius site ... would be tempted to think that most (or even many) Christians believe the Apollo program was a hoax."

;D
The German main translator is a different animal (being an atheist), but knows Christian beliefs well enough.

While I'm at it:
There is a new webpage exclusive on German Clavius dealing with a German hoax author named Gerhard Wiesnewski. He was one of the authors of the hoax "documentary" Akte Apollo (the one Phil Plait was interviewed for) and has recently published a new book titled "Lügen im Weltraum" ("Lies in Space"). Those of you who can read German are very welcome to review it. He has a couple of new claims. www.clavius.info/bibwisnewski1.htm

[gwiz]

martinaw said:

While I'm at it:
There is a new webpage exclusive on German Clavius dealing with a German hoax author named Gerhard Wiesnewski. He was one of the authors of the hoax "documentary" Akte Apollo (the one Phil Plait was interviewed for) and has recently published a new book titled "Lügen im Weltraum" ("Lies in Space"). Those of you who can read German are very welcome to review it. He has a couple of new claims. www.clavius.info/bibwisnewski1.htm

For those of us with little or no German, could you post these new claims in English, please.

[Martina W.]

gwiz said:

For those of us with little or no German, could you post these new claims in English, please.

I'll try, but it may take some time.

[johnroodt]

I was directed to this site by a colleague but was immediately dissapointed by the irresponsible manner in which you handled the issue of Dr Neville Jones. The reason is, you don't appear to make much effort to understand before you judge. Dr. Jones is NOT a Christian. A Christian, as the name implies, is one who follows Jesus Christ, believing that He was the One sent from God -- the Messiah promised to the Jews.

Dr Jones believes in the Hebrew Scriptures (the Old Testament) but not the New Testament.

But in any case, what you did is still unacceptable. Dr Jones should be judged purely on the facts. If you can show him the error in his thinking with sound (preferrably scientific arguments) then do so. Otherwise, you would be wiser to reserve your judgement.

[grashtel]

johnroodt said:

But in any case, what you did is still unacceptable. Dr Jones should be judged purely on the facts. If you can show him the error in his thinking with sound (preferrably scientific arguments) then do so. Otherwise, you would be wiser to reserve your judgement.

You mean like something over 90% of the article does (assuming that you are referring to this one)? It only mentions Dr Jone's beliefs at the very beginning and end of the article with the vast proportion of it addressing Dr Jone's factual errors, and IMO the apparent motivation behind his beliefs is sufficiently significant to warrant comment.

[Halcyon Dayz, FCD]

Wisnewski sounds even worst then average.
A political scientist?
Figures.

From the RAF to 9/11 to Apollo.
Definitely a professional CT.
What was his 'theory' on the RAF? That they were a government program?

Mondbasis said:

"Wie konnte Nazideutschland mit nur 320 Soldaten Russland angreifen und bis heute besetzt halten?"

;D

[PeterB]

Johnroodt said:

But in any case, what you did is still unacceptable. Dr Jones should be judged purely on the facts. If you can show him the error in his thinking with sound (preferrably scientific arguments) then do so. Otherwise, you would be wiser to reserve your judgement.

G'day Johnroodt, and welcome to ApolloHoax.

When I read Jay's article, I see example after example where he has judged Dr Jones solely on the facts. Can you point to examples which aren't the case?

[Halcyon Dayz, FCD]

Jones' website seems to be out of order.
But since I can't find a single reference to a Dr. Neville T. Jones and his article is so silly, I think he is either a fraud or a hoaxer.
In any case a joke.

Apparently he calls himself a Christian, so I guess it's a matter of opinion.
To me this sounds like Wahabites and Ishmaelites calling each other heretics, while the Shiites think they know better.

[echnaton]

Welcome to the board, johnroodt.

Since the link to Dr. Jones paper now hits a inactive site, I can’t read the paper for myself. Perhaps you could give some color on this of maybe some links to this or other writings of Dr. Jones so we can better judge for ourselves whether Clavius is making to much of the issue with the few comments in that article. If he is motivated by religious beliefs, then a critique of that motivation is in order. Do you believe that Dr. Jones is motivated by his understanding of physics and science in general and not his religious beliefs?

[JayUtah]

Dr. Jones is NOT a Christian.

We will make the correction.

Dr Jones should be judged purely on the facts.

Dr. Jones' claims are being judged purely on the facts, and it was purely on the facts that his claims regarding Apollo were shown to be grossly in error.

Further, we discuss religion only because Dr. Jones did. Our discussion of his faith comprised only a very small part of our review, and was made without comment on its validity -- the overwhelming bulk of our review was the purely factual discussion you say would have been appropriate. Our conclusion is not that Dr. Jones' faith is true or false, but that of the two possible reasons given in his article to compel his conclusion -- religious faith and scientific inconsistency -- only the former emerged as a defensible motivation.

It is unfortunate that Dr. Jones has removed his paper from circulation. We believe in allowing those whom we criticize to express themselves as they wish in their own words.

[Jason Thompson]

But in any case, what you did is still unacceptable. Dr Jones should be judged purely on the facts. If you can show him the error in his thinking with sound (preferrably scientific arguments) then do so. Otherwise, you would be wiser to reserve your judgement.

Dr Jones's religious beliefs are mentioned twice in that article, in the introduction and the conclusion. The rest of it deals entirely with his misunderstandings of the science involved.