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Post by gillianren on Jun 10, 2008 12:59:46 GMT -4
Well I never said the exact same thing, I said similar. I think that there are few few people on this board that wouldn't accept that the US has already been hit once on US soil with a result of 3,000 dead. Do you really want to see what the same group can do with the resources of Iraq behind them? Yeah. Would've been nice if we'd finished the job of actually defeating the people who did it instead of invading another country, wouldn't it?
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Post by Ginnie on Jun 10, 2008 15:19:24 GMT -4
Yes, the United States is a great nation. Ours is not too shabby either.
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Jason
Pluto
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Post by Jason on Jun 10, 2008 16:43:58 GMT -4
Yeah, Canada has it pretty good too. So do New Zealand and Australia, from what I hear.
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Post by Ginnie on Jun 10, 2008 16:54:35 GMT -4
Yeah, Canada has it pretty good too. So do New Zealand and Australia, from what I hear. Thank you America for protecting us from the Russians for over forty years. A lot of countries owe the States for this. Some of the stuff the U.S. did during the Cold War was not so good, but just think what the world would be like today if the States hadn't done anything to keep communism in check. Of course, if America had stayed out of WWII, Hitler would've ended doing it. So we owe the U.S. on two counts - big ones that people forget about.
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Jason
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Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Jun 10, 2008 17:17:15 GMT -4
An amusing counter point. Sen. Obama has been making some effort to show that John McCain is effectively going to be the third term for George Bush. McCain's response: Obama is going to be the the second term for Jimmy Carter. See the video here
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Post by PhantomWolf on Jun 10, 2008 18:18:43 GMT -4
Well I never said the exact same thing, I said similar. I think that there are few few people on this board that wouldn't accept that the US has already been hit once on US soil with a result of 3,000 dead. Do you really want to see what the same group can do with the resources of Iraq behind them? Yeah. Would've been nice if we'd finished the job of actually defeating the people who did it instead of invading another country, wouldn't it? You are so, so, so, so, so, so right!
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Post by wdmundt on Jun 10, 2008 18:51:27 GMT -4
It's not so much the president, but rather Republicans in Congress who are blocking action on most issues.
"The use of a filibuster as a routine measure on virtually every bill and the use of the filibuster on bills were there is a consensus on a tactic to slow things down, to make the place look bad, that is new," said Norm Ornstein, a congressional expert with the American Enterprise Institute. "It is sending Congress' approval down into the sewer but it is also sending Republicans even further into the sewer."
The American Enterprise Institute is a conservative, pro-business "think tank."
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Post by Ginnie on Jun 10, 2008 19:10:14 GMT -4
Jason said: I'll agree that Washington is in a sorry state of affairs, but I view that as primarily the fault of Congress, not the President
wdmundt said: It's not so much the president, but rather Republicans in Congress who are blocking action on most issues.
Hey it seems that you guys actually almost/nearly/just about/pretty much agree on this. I think that is a good starting point.
What do you think of this? We got a lot accomplished today.
Next session is on Friday.
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Jason
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Post by Jason on Jun 10, 2008 20:49:14 GMT -4
Yep, we basically both agree that congress sucks.
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Jason
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Post by Jason on Jun 12, 2008 16:39:10 GMT -4
I changed my mind - the silliest issue surrounding Obama is those critics of him who insist on using his full name - Barack Hussein Obama - and those who get uptight when they do it.
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reynoldbot
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Post by reynoldbot on Jun 12, 2008 18:05:52 GMT -4
I grew up in Indonesia, so yes I have a pretty good idea what life can be like outside of the US. Just because the US is still a great nation now doesn't mean it always will be, and it doesn't mean we should allow our rights and freedoms to be bartered away. I think you overestimate the stability of a prosperous, free nation. It won't take much to destroy what makes this country great. Ignoring the constitution is a good way to start. And just to let you know, our healthcare system is not the best in the world. There are many nations that provide cheap, universal high quality health care (the most notable difference being that doctors in those countries aren't rich).
Bush didn't even begin vetoing bills until the democrats regained control of congress, and in the two years since has vetoed ten bills.
The war on terror is unwinnable, and in my opinion so is the war in Iraq. Unless we want troops dying in Iraq indefinitely for no other reason than that we can't admit we were wrong, we have to make the decision to pull troops out. Al Qaeda will be strengthened virtually no matter what we do. They have publicly committed themselves to follow the US military wherever we go, and the war in Iraq has only provided them fuel and new bases of operations. Al Qaeda cannot be defeated with a conventional military strategy. The only way we can defeat them is to give them no reason to fight. This cowboy mentality we've had concerning foreign relations is not working, it has played right into OBL's hands, it has created a flourishing worldwide terrorism network, and it has put us in a lose-lose scenario. A better way can be had, and I simply do not believe "staying the course" is going to solve anything.
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Jason
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Post by Jason on Jun 12, 2008 21:59:19 GMT -4
I grew up in Indonesia, so yes I have a pretty good idea what life can be like outside of the US. Good. Then you should have some idea of just how good we have it in comparison to the rest of the world. There are reasons behind that. Well, it's better than the Netherlands'. Better than Canada's too (a Canadian friend of mine drove to Utah in part to buy asprin that he couldn't get in Canada for nearly as cheap - the other parts were a laptop and a cable box). Yeah, and ten isn't a lot. Or at least, it wouldn't be a lot if the current Congress produced a significant number of bills. Do you have any real evidence of that, or is it strictly your opinion? What do you think the cost of pulling out prematurely will be to the Iraqis the rest of the world? How is that a better cost than staying the course for four or five more years?
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Post by Ginnie on Jun 12, 2008 22:29:24 GMT -4
How much aspirin did he want? I can buy aspirin here pretty cheap. That is too ridiculous for you to mention don't you think? And you wouldn't save enough on the laptop and cablebox to drive to Utah. He must have had a better reason. But your comment about health care is valid. We have universal health care here and while its great to have, we pay a lot for it. And it is probably not near the best in the world, I'm sure yours is way more efficient.
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Post by LunarOrbit on Jun 12, 2008 23:21:28 GMT -4
Better than Canada's too (a Canadian friend of mine drove to Utah in part to buy asprin that he couldn't get in Canada for nearly as cheap Really? Was this before the Canadian dollar reached parity with the US dollar? Bus loads of Americans have been know to cross the border into Canada just to get cheaper medicine. And one of the reasons why we now have photo ID for our health care system is because Americans used to "borrow" ID cards from Canadian friends in order to get free health care. How is the war on drugs going? Why should we expect the war on terror to go any better? If the end result is going to be the same whether US soldiers are there or not then why lose your soldiers unnecessarily?
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Post by Halcyon Dayz, FCD on Jun 13, 2008 6:24:17 GMT -4
Well, it's better than the Netherlands'. Did you have to wait in line or something? Anecdote is not data. We spend less on health care (per capita) then Americans do, yet life expectancy is greater here, and everybody has access to the system. (We save a lot of money by having a good first line, keeps a lot of people from getting seriously ill in the first place.)
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