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Post by Count Zero on Feb 9, 2009 2:19:31 GMT -4
I've been hearing about the terrible losses from the brushfires in southern Australia. It is a horror I don't want to imagine. My condolences and fervent prayers are with our friends down-under.
- Rick
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Post by trevor on Feb 9, 2009 3:31:30 GMT -4
The fires are in Victoria, so far they have 131 confirmed dead and predict the death toll could go as high as 230. It's really bad, many of the victims were in their cars trying to out run the flames.
So far they have confirmed at least one of the fires was deliberately lit. I'm mean seriously, who the hell does that. If they are caught, they should be done for premeditated murder and rot in prison for the rest of their lives which hopefully will be a miserable one, being used as Bubba's bitch.
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Post by gillianren on Feb 9, 2009 4:27:44 GMT -4
I grew up in a brush fire-prone area, and every year, there's at least one or two that's arson. Fortunately, there are seldom fatalities there, but I agree--if you deliberately set a fire that kills someone, that's First Degree Murder so far as I'm concerned. (The fire that struck my hometown my junior year in high school was lit by a homeless man trying to build a campfire. It got away from him. I don't think he was charged for anything but illegally lighting a fire in a park.) There are some people who just don't think anything beyond "fire is fun!" and they should be made to face the consequences of their actions.
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Post by PeterB on Feb 9, 2009 6:15:25 GMT -4
The deaths have occurred in small towns, with few roads in or out.
It's just over six years since a single bushfire destroyed over 500 houses here in Canberra, but only four people died. In a major city, many houses are packed together, which means one fire can cause a lot of damage, but there are also lots of roads that people can use to escape. Tragically it was the opposite in the Victorian fires, hence (in my opinion) the horrible loss of life.
To put it in perspective, consider that the USA has about 15 times the population of Australia.
The other tragedy about the possibility of arson is that quite a few arsonists in the past have been members of volunteer bushfire brigades - either these are people who like being around fire, or they set fires so they can put them out and be heroes.
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Post by Kiwi on Feb 9, 2009 7:30:36 GMT -4
Eric Jones, co-editor of the Apollo Lunar Surface Journal, lives only about 50km by road from a devastating fire near Beechworth, Victoria. From a news report, Monday 9 February 2009: "The Beechworth blaze has burnt 30,000 hectares and continues to threaten the communities of Stanley, Bruarong, Dederang, Gundowring, Gundowring Upper, Kancoona, Kancoona South, Coral Bank, Glenn Creek and Running Creek."
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Post by gillianren on Feb 9, 2009 15:16:04 GMT -4
The other tragedy about the possibility of arson is that quite a few arsonists in the past have been members of volunteer bushfire brigades - either these are people who like being around fire, or they set fires so they can put them out and be heroes. There was an arson inspector back home who did that in the '80s. He just liked fires. One of the fires he started, in fact, was the one that killed one of the kids who had a memorial scholarship named after him at my high school. (If that sentence made any sense.) I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that he wasn't alone in that particular . . . instability.
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Post by laurel on Feb 9, 2009 17:17:53 GMT -4
A journalist named Richard Maynard told CBC that it is often hard to catch arsonists in cases like this because the fires destroy a lot of the evidence. That must be extremely frustrating for the authorities. Maybe the arsonist will be stupid enough to brag about what he/she did and they'll catch a break.
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Post by Ginnie on Feb 9, 2009 19:21:01 GMT -4
I hope the fires are put out quickly, and more people don't die. So devestating, and to think that some of the fires were deliberately set just astounds me.
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Post by PeterB on Feb 10, 2009 5:46:49 GMT -4
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Post by PeterB on Feb 10, 2009 5:49:45 GMT -4
A journalist named Richard Maynard told CBC that it is often hard to catch arsonists in cases like this because the fires destroy a lot of the evidence. That must be extremely frustrating for the authorities. Maybe the arsonist will be stupid enough to brag about what he/she did and they'll catch a break. Discussions on another forum suggested it's often possible to find the evidence of arson, as long as the wind doesn't change direction and blow the fire back over the starting point. This is because the fire usually spreads in a V-shape from the start point, meaning that most of the ground around the start point will be unburned.
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Post by Kiwi on Feb 10, 2009 12:21:18 GMT -4
PeterB: I read somewhere a few years ago something about Australian bushfires being much worse than in many countries due to inflammable oils in some of the trees. Is this true? I don't recall exactly what was said and have not found anything else about it. What trees, exactly? Tea trees and eucalypts are the only ones I know of that have oils, but I don't know if they are inflammable. Photos of the fires in Victoria. This is an amazing selection. There are heaps of thumbnails at the bottom and the arrow buttons page the thumbnails to the left or right. The plus and minus buttons display next or previous photo, or you can click on the ones you want to view. Some are actually quite beautiful in a horrific way. Underneath the photos is a link to a story about arsonists not being remorseful and also not necessarily being mentally ill. Parts of New Zealand's South Island have thick clouds of smoke from Victoria hanging over them, causing very red sunsets. Discussions on another forum suggested it's often possible to find the evidence of arson, as long as the wind doesn't change direction and blow the fire back over the starting point. This is because the fire usually spreads in a V-shape from the start point, meaning that most of the ground around the start point will be unburned. I once saw the cause of a grass fire exactly like that at the peak of a V-shape -- a partly-singed filter tip from a cigarette and a small quantity of cigarette ash extending from it, still intact. Back in February 1973 the biggest wildfire for many decades where I live was traced back to a bottle lying in long, dry summer grass beside a road. The bottle focused the sun onto the grass, and luckily the resulting fire was blown between two houses and then spread out over farmland. It burnt farm buildings, but no homes.
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Feb 10, 2009 12:57:34 GMT -4
230 deaths seems like an awful lot of casualties for brush fires. I don't think we ever hear of more than two or three deaths with any wildfire in the U.S.
What's the cause of the disparity?
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Post by echnaton on Feb 10, 2009 15:39:56 GMT -4
It's grimly humorous that this schmuck is leading "The Catch the Fire Ministries." I am not an expert this kind of fundamentalist theology, because it so foreign to my belief it disgusts me. Many of these guys take their theology form the Old Testament and are really more Old Testament Jews than Christians in theology. They preach this fire and brimstone of a vengeful God and believe they can divine the actions of God. As we all know it is complete nonsense, but it is a draw for a large number of people in the world. I think they really hold the beliefs they profess (at least a large number of them do) and think of themselves as carrying God's message. They validate themselves and beliefs by their ability to draw support, either in congregation size or fund raising. Some of them are of course cynical hucksters and some are probably a combination of both huckster and disciple. Did this guy really have the dream? I doubt it. Is he lying? Maybe or maybe not. I've known a few people who experience life in metaphor with varying degrees of regard for the more tangible facts. It is a quality that seems to be useful for a successful huckster or preacher.
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Post by gillianren on Feb 10, 2009 16:13:43 GMT -4
PeterB: I read somewhere a few years ago something about Australian bushfires being much worse than in many countries due to inflammable oils in some of the trees. Is this true? I don't recall exactly what was said and have not found anything else about it. What trees, exactly? Tea trees and eucalypts are the only ones I know of that have oils, but I don't know if they are inflammable. According to my mom, there was a brushfire that hit near my elementary school when I was very young indeed (or possibly not born yet), and she says the eucalyptus trees there went up like candles. (There's a lot of eucalyptus back home.) I don't know about tea trees, though--I do know that a lot of the brush back home is like that, too. Creosote, for example.
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Post by laurel on Feb 10, 2009 20:07:04 GMT -4
I am not an expert this kind of fundamentalist theology, because it so foreign to my belief it disgusts me. Many of these guys take their theology form the Old Testament and are really more Old Testament Jews than Christians in theology. They preach this fire and brimstone of a vengeful God and believe they can divine the actions of God. As we all know it is complete nonsense, but it is a draw for a large number of people in the world. I think they really hold the beliefs they profess (at least a large number of them do) and think of themselves as carrying God's message. They validate themselves and beliefs by their ability to draw support, either in congregation size or fund raising. Some of them are of course cynical hucksters and some are probably a combination of both huckster and disciple. Did this guy really have the dream? I doubt it. Is he lying? Maybe or maybe not. Regarding whether he really had the dream, it sounds like just another case of, "I actually predicted this way before it happened, I just didn't tell anyone until now." It seems like with every disaster, some religious extremist finds a way to blame "sinful" behaviour for it. Like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson blaming 9/11 on feminists, pagans, liberals, etc. Fred Phelps is probably the most extreme example of this. According to him, pretty much everything bad that happens (Virginia Tech massacre, Sago Mine disaster, STS-107, combat deaths in Iraq, the 2004 tsunami, the 2008 murder of Tim McLean in Canada) is a result of God's wrath against homosexuality. This kind of mindset is foreign to me too, I was raised with Christian beliefs but we attended the United Church of Canada, not much fire and brimstone there.
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