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Post by AtomicDog on Jul 7, 2011 9:58:18 GMT -4
The Pearl Harbor Conspiracy Theory is down the hall and to your left, please.
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Post by Jason Thompson on Jul 7, 2011 10:01:53 GMT -4
And it is irrelevant.
We are discussing Apollo. What may have happened in WWII is neither here nor there, and again is not comparable.
You cannot dupe a bunch of engineers into building a lunar module that won't work, for example. If they don't know it doesn't have to work they build a working one.
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Post by fattydash on Jul 7, 2011 10:09:28 GMT -4
There is no reason to argue that it was a module that could not work, would not work. I imagine the engineers thought it was a perfectly good LM.
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Post by Jason Thompson on Jul 7, 2011 10:13:28 GMT -4
So if the hardware worked, what would their reason for faking it be? If the hardware did everything it needed to, why fake it?
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Post by randombloke on Jul 7, 2011 10:18:02 GMT -4
If it was "perfectly good" why wasn't it used?
More specifically, why were eight, not counting prototypes, built and not used?
If eight "perfectly good" lunar modules were built, each one fully capable of performing the mission for which it was designed (where design parameters included the radiation environment amongst many other things) why did no-one think "oh, hey we have entirely capable craft here, why not just stick some guys in them and go, instead of trying to come up with all these elaborate materials that must fool every astronomer, geologist and physicist on the planet for at least the next eighty years?"
Do you really not see how absurd your position is? In your world, someone built a working spacecraft, then someone else said "lets not use this working space craft because it won't work" and no-one saw the contradiction.
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Post by fattydash on Jul 7, 2011 10:21:56 GMT -4
The fraud is all the more believable if high level scientists are participating, albeit uknowingly. It can only be convincing if this is the case. The project in a sense has to be full scale with essentially all of the 400,000 utterly convinced they are sending a couple guys to the moon. This is an essential element of the program.
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Post by randombloke on Jul 7, 2011 10:31:22 GMT -4
If a bunch of "high level scientists" whatever that means, say the radiation environment is such-and-such and then the contractors see the numbers and go "whoa that's harsh. Tricky...but we'll figure something out" and then they proceed to do so and build functional hardware, why wasn't that hardware used?
Because the data those scientists fed them was wrong? Is that your claim?
Now show us why no-one noticed, in the intervening seventy or so years, that all their commercial satellites were falling out if the sky due to radiation doses in excess of what those "high level scientists" publicly stated to be present.
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Post by Jason Thompson on Jul 7, 2011 10:33:49 GMT -4
The fraud is all the more believable if high level scientists are participating, albeit uknowingly. It can only be convincing if this is the case. The project in a sense has to be full scale with essentially all of the 400,000 utterly convinced they are sending a couple guys to the moon. This is an essential element of the program. For the umpteenth time of saying it, if almost all the people involved think it is going to be genuine then they build the equipment that will make those goals genuinely achievable. What, then, is the reason for faking it?
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Post by twik on Jul 7, 2011 10:45:37 GMT -4
The fraud is all the more believable if high level scientists are participating, albeit uknowingly. It can only be convincing if this is the case. The project in a sense has to be full scale with essentially all of the 400,000 utterly convinced they are sending a couple guys to the moon. This is an essential element of the program. So, 400,000 people were convinced that the work they were doing was capable of sending people to the Moon. Even the "high level scientists" didn't notice that it wouldn't work? Gee, with that much support, I'm surprised that they didn't slip up and actually send people to the Moon by mistake. Added: What about the people who had to know it was a fake? The technicians who, you imply, set up false radio relays? Faked the photographs? Created imitation Moon rocks? (Man, that last would have had to be a LOT of trial and error, till they got something that looked convincing.) This is not something that a few dozen people could have done on their own. There would have been thousands of people who had to know they were participating in a hoax.
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Post by echnaton on Jul 7, 2011 11:20:01 GMT -4
There would have been thousands of people who had to know they were participating in a hoax. And amazingly not one of them has come forth. I wonder why that might be? Any thought on that fattydash?
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Post by twik on Jul 7, 2011 11:24:51 GMT -4
You know, the argument that "only a handful had to know it was fake" would work only if they blasted off, somehow were rendered completely incommunicado, and returned with maybe two or three pictures. Then your only problem to solve would be how to hide the astronauts while they were allegedly on the Moon.
When you provide live tv of their activities, trackable objects in space and hard evidence returned such as Moon rocks, there would have to be immense numbers of people involved to fake that. You can't have a couple of techs mock that up in their garage over the weekend.
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Post by scooter on Jul 7, 2011 11:56:22 GMT -4
This has always been a sticking point....what insurmountable issue demanded faking the missions? Was it radiation? The engineering of the huge booster? (Kaysing's dumping the "fake" Saturn V in the "South Atlantic", after taking off on a 70-something degree azimuth...never have figured that one out!!) Alien defense emplacements on the lunar surface?
Why did they need to fake it? I have yet to see a "cause" for the alleged hoax that hasn't been totally debunked.
And, of course, fattydash doesn't like the LM design. Maybe if it had cool fins and stuff...
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Post by gillianren on Jul 7, 2011 12:03:25 GMT -4
trebor, the point with regrd to the Manhattan project is not that the Russians knew, it is that those Americans involved in the project were not aware that they were working on a bomb. Wait, the Americans involved in the Manhattan Project? You know, I'm pretty sure a lot of them did know what they were building, actually. But it doesn't matter. What matters here is that everyone knew about Apollo. It was open to full public scrutiny (except in small matters like personal medical records!) pretty much right away. A realistic study of history shows that conspiracies don't stay hidden, but even the barest logical examination of Apollo shows that it would have had the double burden, in this Bizarro world, of being both secret and completely open. Impossible.
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Post by fattydash on Jul 7, 2011 12:05:26 GMT -4
I think the LM design is fine. One of my favorite books of all time was/is Mike Gray's "Angle of Attack".
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Post by scooter on Jul 7, 2011 13:35:02 GMT -4
I think the LM design is fine. One of my favorite books of all time was/is Mike Gray's "Angle of Attack". LM...check. Completely capable of doing it's mission of safely transporting two astronauts to and from the surface, and housing them safely in the interim. OK, how about the radiation environment...was that the show stopper? Was it the searing radiation hell of the VAB, or the cislunar solar/gamma radiation? Was the CM/suits not up to protecting the astronauts? Trying to find the smoking gun that required the hoaxing of the flights...
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