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Post by PhantomWolf on Jan 25, 2010 19:34:31 GMT -4
I know what happened because I have talked to the man that did it. His name is Colin Scroggins, he was the Military Liason in the Boston ATCC. He occasionally posts under the name "Cheap Shot" over on the JREF Forum. At the time of the Commision's report they still didn't have all the information that has come out in the past 5 1/2 years. Ok, thanks for that precision.That clear my mind about some events which appeared suspicious without more details. Here's an interview one of the other posters on JREF did with him. It'll hopefully give you some insight into the events of the day and how ATC and NORAD handled it.
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Post by gillianren on Jan 25, 2010 19:37:18 GMT -4
Ok, thanks for that precision.That clear my mind about some events which appeared suspicious without more details. Did you consider looking for answers before making accusations?
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Post by PhantomWolf on Jan 25, 2010 21:30:51 GMT -4
Ok, thanks for that precision.That clear my mind about some events which appeared suspicious without more details. Did you consider looking for answers before making accusations? In all fairness much of the information (such as posts and interviews with Cheap Shot) is hard to find unless you know what you are looking for. Unlike what a lot of CT's like to believe, there is no one "Offical Story" sitting on a website somewhere, rather it is made up of many peoples accounts and reports, few of them perfect. The 9/11 Commision and NIST Reports are great starting points, but we also know that not everything they say is 100% correct, they do get things wrong. Usually they can justify their assumption at the time, or they might have just said "we don't know" and then later new information has emerged allowing the hole to be filled, this is what makes the "Offical Story" a living document. It's also why sites like Mark Robert's are so valuable in investigating the truth, because they try and gather all of the thousands of strands to one place, or at least give you a starting point where to locate the other strands. I really recommend it because it has links to many people's work, some directly countering CT claims, some just talking about what really occured that day now the cloud of confusion has passed.
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Post by gillianren on Jan 26, 2010 2:29:01 GMT -4
Well, sure, but "I couldn't find out I was wrong, so it's impossible!" is not the way to start discussion.
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Post by porphyry on Feb 3, 2010 1:20:31 GMT -4
Doesn't this violate Board Rule #1? "If you disagree with someone do so politely."
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Post by LunarOrbit on Feb 3, 2010 1:53:54 GMT -4
What are we supposed to call people who continue to spout false information even after it has been shown to be incorrect? Would "liars" be a better word?
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Post by BertL on Feb 3, 2010 10:13:00 GMT -4
I'd say "bigots" would be a more accurate description in that context, LO.
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Post by porphyry on Feb 3, 2010 14:32:08 GMT -4
In most social contexts, calling someone an "idiot", "liar" or "bigot" is not considered polite, whether or not it's accurate. So I still think it's a violation of Rule 1.
LunarOrbit, since you are taking the role of an impartial moderator on this board, I'm especially disappointed that you can't see that.
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Feb 3, 2010 14:54:41 GMT -4
PFT isn't a board member.
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Post by porphyry on Feb 3, 2010 15:31:51 GMT -4
PFT has hundreds of members. How do you know that some of them aren't members here? The original poster obviously thought PFT has some value. The attack on PFT was something I'm sure that individual felt personally. Here is the list of the core membership of PFT: pilotsfor911truth.org/core.htmlIn addition to being insulting, the charge that these people are all idiots, liars and bigots is completely lacking credibility: Robert Balsamo 4000TT Commercial, Instrument, Multi, CFI II MEI Corporate Chief Pilot 135 Capt 121 FO Independence Air/Atlantic Coast Airlines King Air C-90/200, Dornier 328JET
Captain Russ Wittenberg (ret) 30,000+ Total Flight Time 707, 727, 737, 747, 757, 767, 777 Pan Am, United United States Air Force (ret) Over 100 Combat Missions Flown Command time in: - N591UA (Aircraft dispatched as United 93) - N612UA (Aircraft dispatched as United 175)
Captain Ross Aimer UAL Ret. CEO, Aviation Experts LLC 40 years and 30,000 hrs. BS Aero A&P Mech. B-777/767/757/747/737/727/720/707, DC-10/-9/-8 Type ratings Command time in: - N591UA (Aircraft dispatched as United 93) - N612UA (Aircraft dispatched as United 175) www.AviationExperts.com
Commander Ralph “Rotten” Kolstad 23,000 hours 27 years in the airlines B757/767 for 13 years mostly international Captain with American Airlines. 20 years US Navy flying fighters off aircraft carriers, TopGun twice civilian pilot flying gliders, light airplanes and warbirds Command time in: - N644AA (Aircraft dispatched as American 77) - N334AA (Aircraft dispatched as American 11)
John Lear Son of Bill Lear (Founder, creator of the Lear Jet Corporation) More than 40 years of Flying 19,000+ TT 23 Type ratings Flight experience includes 707, DC-8, 727, L10-11
Jeff Latas -Over 20 years in the USAF --USAF Accident investigation Board President --Flew the F-111, T38, and F-15E --Combat experience in the F-15E includes Desert Storm and four tours of duty in Northern and Southern Watch --Weapons Requirements Officer, USAF HQ, Pentagon --Standard and Evaluations Flight Examiner, Command level -Currently Captain for JetBlue Airways
Guy S. Razer, LtCol, USAF (Ret) 3,500+ Hours Total Flight Time F-15E/C, F-111A/D/E/F/EF, F-16, F-18, B-1, Mig-29, SU-22, T-37/38, Various Cvilian Prop Combat Time: Operation Northern Watch USAF Fighter Weapons School Instructor NATO Tactical Leadership Program Instructor/Mission Coordinator USAF Material Command Weapons Development Test Pilot Combat Support Coordination Team 2 Airpower Coordinator, South Korea All Service Combat Identification Evaluation Team Operations Officer Boeing F-22 Pilot Instructor MS Aeronautical Studies, Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University
Field McConnell (Captain Sherlock?) 23,000+ hours CV580,DC9,MD80,B727,A320,DC10 NCA,REP,NWA A4,F4,F16 USN,USMC, ND ANG www.captainsherlock.com Forced to retire due 9/11 exposure www.hawkscafe.com
Captain Paul A. Trood B737-800/400 Captain Qantas Airways Australia Experience: 18,000 flight hours
Jim Mustanich ATP 20,000+ hours Typed in CE-500, DHC-7, EMB-110, BA-3100 Aircraft flown include Boeing 727,737, Douglas DC-9, MD-80 United Air Lines, American International Airlines, Air Pacific Airlines, West Air Airlines 6-7 years corporate flying in Cessna Citations Factory demo pilot for Cessna Citations
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Feb 3, 2010 16:00:22 GMT -4
PFT has hundreds of members. How do you know that some of them aren't members here? PFT itself is not a member. I'm not saying it was polite, I'm just not sure that insulting a conspiracy believing group that no one here seems to be a member of is really a violation of the board rules to be polite to others. They are aircraft pilots so they can't be stupid, lie, or have prejudices? Wasn't President George W. Bush, a man many on this forum don't consider all that intelligent and some consider a liar, a fighter pilot?
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Post by echnaton on Feb 3, 2010 16:01:39 GMT -4
PFT has hundreds of members. How do you know that some of them aren't members here? The original poster obviously thought PFT has some value. The attack on PFT was something I'm sure that individual felt personally. Here is the list of the core membership of PFT: pilotsfor911truth.org/core.htmlIn addition to being insulting, the charge that these people are all idiots, liars and bigots is completely lacking credibility: Are you here to make a point or argue about how the PFT are being treated. One way the term liar is used in contemporary speech is to describe someone who continues to make claims after sufficient evidence to refute those claims has been presented to him, whether the person accepts the evidence or not. That seems to fit the PFT.
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Post by laurel on Feb 3, 2010 16:16:06 GMT -4
John Lear Son of Bill Lear (Founder, creator of the Lear Jet Corporation) More than 40 years of Flying 19,000+ TT 23 Type ratings Flight experience includes 707, DC-8, 727, L10-11 He is a member here, actually, although he stopped posting quite awhile ago. According to him, the Moon has a breathable atmosphere and millions of people are living up there. He says a mysterious fourth astronaut was killed in the Apollo 1 fire, but he refused to name the astronaut or provide any evidence for this claim. He said the astronauts could not fit through the LM's hatch, but he admitted that he did not know the dimensions of the hatch or the PLSS when he made this claim. I don't know about you, but I don't consider him a reliable source. apollohoax.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=theories&action=display&thread=2112&page=1
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Post by porphyry on Feb 3, 2010 16:42:32 GMT -4
Jason, I don't see anything in Rule #1 that restricts applicability to board members. No, I don't believe it's possible for a pilot to be stupid. Indeed some are liars, and some are bigots, but the list of PFT members is very long and I think it's ridiculous to claim that they're all liars and bigots.
Echnaton, I disagree with your definition of 'Liar'. The concept of 'liar' implies that there is some objective definition of Truth. At the very least, there needs to be a consensus among a jury of peers, or a panel of peer reviewers including some who are generally sympathetic to both sides. In the case of a forum like this, I think a consensus should include at least one "HB".
Laurel, I followed the link you provided and I'm not convinced that John Lear is really a member here. I see someone claiming to post a letter on his behalf. How do we know that John Lear the pilot, the son of Bill Lear, really wrote that?
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Post by archer17 on Feb 3, 2010 16:55:54 GMT -4
porphyry - do you actually have anything to post about the thread topic?
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