Pokrovsky theory

[AtomicDog]

I wondered when the "paid NASA shills" card would be played.

I could use the money.

[twik]

Tsialkovsky, could you perform a thought-experiment for me? Please tell me, what type of evidence do you think should be able to be produced, if Apollo is real, that you cannot argue away? What do you think we *should* have?

I mean, there are literally thousands of first-hand accounts of people involved, from the astronauts to the technicians, to people who watched the launches. You say they're lying.

There are hours of video footage, and thousands of photographs. You say they're faked.

There are artifacts on the Moon, where the astronauts supposedly left them. You say they're left by robot probes.

There are hundreds of kilograms of Moon rocks. You claim that, since only certain researchers can get samples, and only in small amounts for the studies they want to perform, that you don't believe they exist. (If anyone could take them, and the samples had all been distributed, I'm sure you'd complain that NASA had quickly made the evidence unavailable.) You (presumably) believe that all researchers who DID study the samples are lying about them coming from the Moon.

So, if everything can be faked, or lied about, what about Apollo could we produce that you would accept is real?

And - now, this is the real important question - what other historical event could not be equally "disproved" by calling all witnesses liars, all documentary evidence forged, and all physical evidence faked?

[Bob B.]

Dec 16, 2011 13:50:30 GMT -4 Tsialkovsky said:

We are on a side track now in this thread from Pokrovsky and rocket technology, so I don't reply to those points above

Some of points above specifically address Pokrovsky and rocket technology, so why do you evade answering them?

Somebody is e.g. saying that there is evidence that light reflectors were placed by human astronauts. What is that evidence?

If you want to keep the discussion on Pokrovsky, then why are you now discussing retroreflectors?

Russians have put tens of those to Moon

America has not. America put them on the Moon by landing astronauts.

Somebody said that Saturn V was abandoned because Shuttle was cheaper - no way.

The Shuttle was promised to be cheaper, but it, in many ways, turned out to be a boondoggle.

Shuttle was able to transport only 15 ton to LEO ...

Wrong. The Shuttle could transport 25 t of cargo to LEO. It could put well over 100 t total into LEO when you count the weight of the Shuttle itself.

but S-V and its F-1 were pieces of crap and therefore they were thrown to bin.

Please explain in specific detail the faults with the Saturn V and F-1. And by the way, many of us are engineers, so don't worry and talking over or heads. Give us all the technicals details, please.

Wernher von Braun was kicked out just before the Apollo-11 and so was the NASA director James Webb and many other leaders. FBI's statement was that v Braun was a "phony". In Russia, successful rocket designers are celebrated and end up to Kremlin wall.

So why are we not discussing Pokrovsky and rocket technology?

I cannot present any "proof" on behalf of Soviet inteligence agency.

My anonymous and secret intelligence associates say that you're full of crap.

Some people in Russia argue that there was a secret political deal which came up only later (like Gorbatshov's politics) - others say that USSR needed food and wheat because of catastrophic weather disasters and poor crop yields - again others say that USA bought the silence. Who knows....

Who knows? That's the point here. It's all unsubstantiated speculation.

[twik]

Tsialkovsky, I don't believe the Battle of Stalingrad ever happened. Just a propaganda play by Stalin to show that the Russians really weren't the losers they had appeared to be so far in WWII.

I hereby challenge you to prove me wrong. But do not give me any eyewitness accounts. They're lying. Don't show me any photos or documents. They're faked. Don't take me to the scene and show me scars still on the city. After 70 odd years, Russia has had lots of time to fake those. Show me PROOF it happened, none of that fakeable stuff!

[gillianren]

Just to clarify something, how many of the engineers participating in this thread are US citizens? Or, since it was specified that there's a world "across the water," do Canadian citizens count to our new friend as the same thing?

[twik]

I am not, nor have I ever been, a US citizen.

[Bob B.]

I am a US citizen, though that is irrelevant to what I believe or don’t believe when it comes to space technology and history. I look at facts and use science to draw my conclusions.

Many conspiracy theorists argue that US citizens’ views are prejudiced due to nationalistic pride. Others, like Tsialkovsky, argue that the US government disseminates our “facts”; therefore the government controls what we are allowed to know. They say only people outside the USA have access to the real facts. Not only is this a rather silly argument given today's communication technology, but I also consider it ad hominem reasoning.

[JayUtah]

U.S. citizen.

[raven]

I am not American, and it always makes me laugh when conspiracy theorists claim that the US government has this big strangle hold over everything every citizen thinks and then claim I am American.
Or a "government shill".
Or both.

[gillianren]

Dec 16, 2011 17:29:27 GMT -4 Bob B. said:

I am a US citizen, though that is irrelevant to what I believe or don’t believe when it comes to space technology and history. I look at facts and use science to draw my conclusions.

I know that. But they don't always, and the blind assumption that everyone who acknowledges the factual nature of Apollo is American needs to be punctured in some people.

[echnaton]

Dec 16, 2011 14:27:18 GMT -4 AtomicDog said:

I wondered when the "paid NASA shills" card would be played.

I am proposing a new "law."

"As an online discussion about an Apollo hoax grows longer, the probability of a hoax believer calling an Apollo supporter a NASA shill approaches 1."

Lets call it...what? How about echnaton's law.

Everyone is free to use the law by name, with no royalty required, because it is produced under my government contract as a NASA sh... oops!

[Tsialkovsky]

I am not US and not Russian but worked for both in space science. I know well that US people are very objective and critical (see the millions who want to re-open 911). I have used US materials in my arguments very much, but of course I know that also Russians know everything exactly, and after 1991 secret information started to come out. We cannot ignore such experts … and e.g. Europeans know a lot (50-60 % from them are suspicious). My theory is as follows:

I know that USA had a genuine purpose to go to Moon … 100%. But when 1966-1968 came and there were no rocket, no LM and no docking system (I have given links few times) - and there were spy info that Soviets may go to moon to humiliate Kennedy - and there were brilliant materials from Langley simulations, White House called to Walt Disney's people who had done Moon movies with von Braun and made a major contract from the Apollo PR work. The idea was to start with staging and develop the equipment quickly further and go to Moon a bit later than 1969. This was done. Very few people understood that all the data came from Langley - not from Moon (even if that transmission was tested few times beforehand and Houston people had seen similar information earlier, too). Because of staging, there became a major struggle in NASA between the astronauts, politicians and space experts - many died, many were kicked out and many resigned (many directors).

The key problems are those mentioned: F-1, LM and docking system - my understanding is that they were the bottlenecks. Also I know well geology, radiation physics and image processing, but these are secondary arguments difficult to use in proving anything. I know there are big problems with Moon rock samples (e.g. Russians say that certain trace metals of Moon are missing from US samples; and there is Earth indicators in the rocks).

Certainly impartial evidence will come out one day - maybe not from Moon but from people and documents (Neil has been very straight forward). The history tells that secrets cannot be kept forever - but most big cover-ups are so deeply in people's minds that the truth has no impact. For me the truth is enough whatever it is.

What other historical events? You want to make a trap to me … if I would write all the famous US undercover operations here, you could say that I am a conspiracy theorist and can completely be ignored. I have done my PhD from space sciences but this kind of broad cross-sectoral question cannot be fully in my competence … therefore I like to participate to this kind of discussions anonymously (I work in an international position and I cannot discuss about these issues so easily). But the problem here is that most people are religious and not so keen to analyze.

[AtomicDog]

Why the fascination with Langley? there are NASA centers spread out all over the US.

[Bob B.]

Dec 16, 2011 20:30:13 GMT -4 Tsialkovsky said:

The key problems are those mentioned: F-1, LM and docking system

Please describe the alleged problems in detail.

[randombloke]

Dec 16, 2011 20:36:48 GMT -4 AtomicDog said:

Why the fascination with Langley? there are NASA centers spread out all over the US.

Because there is a CIA facility that is also in a place called Langley and, as everyone knows, if two facilities are in the same town, or even two different towns that happen to have the same name, they must necessarily be in cahoots with each other to grind the world under their collective boot heels by oppressing The Truth.