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Post by ka9q on Feb 19, 2011 5:36:40 GMT -4
Now imagine you're the head of a NASA project. I'm building a rocket to send a manned craft on a high-altitude mission through the suspected upper limits of the Van Allen Belts. Now I go looking for data in the published material. What do I find? Condradictory and diverging figures!? Am I going to risk the lives of people I'm responsible for in such a way? Or am I going to wait a few years for my colleagues in space radiation research to come up with better estimates? I already answered that question for you: You do not need exact figures!All you need is a reasonable assurance that the radiation risk, whatever it is, is not likely to be worse than any of the myriad other risks of space flight. Let me say that again: Radiation is just one of the many hazards of space flight. And it was far from the biggest one for Apollo.Yeah, they had people looking at it. Just like they had people looking at dozens of other potential hazards. But by the time Apollo 8 flew humans to the moon for the first time, they realized that radiation just wasn't that big a deal!Now will you please stop blowing smoke?
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Post by drewid on Feb 19, 2011 7:10:00 GMT -4
Hag. How deep is the sea and how big are waves? I'll take measurements accuate to the nearest .5 meter . thanks. I don't know. I've looked at figures for the sea's depth and wave hieght, but they keep coming up with different answers. This is a dilemma for me because I'm about to set sail in a ship over the sea. It's a voyage whose success is extremely politically important! I'm tempted... should I?... to go to a duckpond in a park and film myself on board the ship there in safety! Nobody will ever know I wasn't really on the sea! Dodge noted, Sorry you feel the need to avoid thinking about the implications of that. You can do better than that. You arrange your journey to stick to the areas of the sea you know are relatively safe in a vessel that has been built and tested to be seaworthy, piloted by a crew with training and experience..
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Post by jd on Feb 19, 2011 8:32:53 GMT -4
Hagbard has done the same as the last 2 times. Hes come here all guns blazing then when pushed for things like evidence, sources and data he has run back to his own forum moaning about how badly he was treated. He sees this as some sort of victory and so do the people on his forum. When he was here last time and warned for being abusive and rude he went back to his own forum and tells everyone that people here cant deal with him so they want to ban him on trumpted up charges. What hes doing is giving this forum a real bad name. All i can suggest is if people still want him to answer their points go to his forum and raise them there. He cant run away from that and people may just see that his interpretation of how he is treated is codswallop. hpanwoforum.freeforums.org/i-ve-quit-apollohoax-t1333.html
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Post by drewid on Feb 19, 2011 9:03:43 GMT -4
He's only giving the forum a bad name among the sort of people who think it has a bad name already. It's really no loss.
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Post by jd on Feb 19, 2011 9:13:12 GMT -4
Are you sure about that?
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Post by tedward on Feb 19, 2011 9:58:21 GMT -4
He can rectify this in one fell swoop. Divvy up the goodies on the belts. He is consistent.
I can search and find quite easily the information required for my level of understanding. I know he can, his stance on this means he does not like it and is trying to contrive a scenario.
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Post by gillianren on Feb 19, 2011 14:17:59 GMT -4
I refuse to let him set the rules of discussion. If he has evidence, let him present it. However, he cannot even satisfactorily answer the question, "What would make you change your mind?" Which proves to me that the answer is "nothing" and further discussion is futile.
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Post by LunarOrbit on Feb 19, 2011 14:42:47 GMT -4
Hagbardceline,
What is the temperature in Canada? Everyone I ask gives me a different answer. Ottawa tells me it's -11C, Calgary says it's -19C, Vancouver says it's +2C, and Yellowknife says it's -23C. Why can't they agree on one temperature? And I bet they'll give me different answers if I ask again tomorrow... or even later tonight. Obviously someone is lying to me!
Okay, so there's no one answer. Calgary isn't contradicting Ottawa. Both answers are correct right now, but they'll have different answers if I ask again tomorrow.
But if you were planning a trip to Canada I could tell you that it's rarely warmer than +40C or colder than -40C. And we can narrow that range even more by knowing exactly when and where you'll be visiting (summer vs. winter, north vs. south, etc.). I can tell you that you don't need to wear a parka in Toronto in June, but you might die if you wore nothing but shorts and t-shirt in Toronto in January.
You can't ask for one or two measurements for the Van Allen Belt, and just because two people gave you two different answers doesn't mean they are contradicting each other. Understand?
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Post by LunarOrbit on Feb 19, 2011 14:54:10 GMT -4
What hes doing is giving this forum a real bad name. I'm really not that worried about it. I've allowed him to make over 150 posts and he hasn't been banned. If he doesn't post here again it's only because he ran away. If he wants to make ridiculous claims that's fine, but we expect him to either support them with evidence or retract them. It's not enough to refer to some obscure children's book... he has to show us. If he doesn't like having to defend his claims then maybe he should stick to his forum.
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Post by blackstar on Feb 19, 2011 15:32:21 GMT -4
Hagbardceline, What is the temperature in Canada? Everyone I ask gives me a different answer. Ottawa tells me it's -11C, Calgary says it's -19C, Vancouver says it's +2C, and Yellowknife says it's -23C. Why can't they agree on one temperature? And I bet they'll give me different answers if I ask again tomorrow... or even later tonight. Obviously someone is lying to me! Okay, so there's no one answer. Calgary isn't contradicting Ottawa. Both answers are correct right now, but they'll have different answers if I ask again tomorrow. But if you were planning a trip to Canada I could tell you that it's rarely warmer than +40C or colder than -40C. And we can narrow that range even more by knowing exactly when and where you'll be visiting (summer vs. winter, north vs. south, etc.). I can tell you that you don't need to wear a parka in Toronto in June, but you might die if you wore nothing but shorts and t-shirt in Toronto in January. You can't ask for one or two measurements for the Van Allen Belt, and just because two people gave you two different answers doesn't mean they are contradicting each other. Understand? I tried the same sort of analogy but with tides, never got a response. Hagbardceline either can't or won't understand the basic concept that the belts vary and change but within a range where you can make usable predictions about them and plan a mission with a high degree of confidence. And that confidence does not have to be 100%, anymore than it does if you set sail in a boat or get in a car or catch a plane, no one can offer you a total guarantee of safety. You either decide to take the risk or you don't and the Apollo astronauts understood the risks and were willing to take them in the same way many of them had when they were test pilots. As I say at this point you have to assume he either can't understand, or simply chooses not, and I know which I'm leaning towards.
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Post by LunarOrbit on Feb 19, 2011 15:51:22 GMT -4
I tried the same sort of analogy but with tides, never got a response. Yeah, I think a few people have taken a similar approach and I figured I might as well have been talking to a brick wall, but I needed to get it out of my head.
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Post by LunarOrbit on Feb 19, 2011 15:58:35 GMT -4
However, he cannot even satisfactorily answer the question, "What would make you change your mind?" Which proves to me that the answer is "nothing" and further discussion is futile. Exactly. We have reached the point (or did long ago) where it's pointless to talk to him because he readily admits he can't see a scenario where he will be convinced that the Moon landings really happened. We're not here to argue in circles with people who can't be convinced, we're here to help people who are on the fence.
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Post by drewid on Feb 19, 2011 17:43:07 GMT -4
Well said. It's not like he's actually presenting evidence or anything to actually debunk apart from some vague incredulity.
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Post by chrlz on Feb 19, 2011 19:36:37 GMT -4
hagbardceline, I'd like to re-iterate my request.
You claim there are anomalies/conflicts/variations of some significance in the scientific literature on VAB radiation.
I am preparing a website on the topic of radiation as it applied to the Apollo missions. It is largely complete but not posted yet. It will be a very comprehensive coverage, including looking at the analysis that led up to the missions, the spacecrafts trajectories and time in the belts, the actual types and potential dangers of the radiation, the shielding used, the estimated/ found/ subsequently recorded/verified amounts of radiation in the belts, and more besides.
On that webpage (and here also), I would like see that information to be as accurate and comprehensive as possible.
Do YOU?
If so, please cite, in detail and your own words, the 'anomalies' to which you refer. By PM if you don't wish to renege on your 'departure'..
Now here's the thing, hag.. I'm a rather tenacious, thorough sort of person. So if you do not come back here and provide the cites (or do the manly thing and apologise for misleading the forum if you realise you were mistaken).. then I'll pop over to your forum and ask the same question (very politely). Perhaps someone else over there is a bit better informed and will stand by their words.
As far as I can see, there is only one reason why you would not provide the citations, and it requires no rocket science to work it out...
So please prove me wrong, and help me in the fair dissemination of knowledge on this topic.
Thanks for your cooperation.
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Post by tedward on Feb 20, 2011 6:00:18 GMT -4
Well, Mr H is complaining he was asked the same question time and time again and had no time to answer them all. All you had to do Mr H, is answer once for all if they were the same question. One answer was all it would have needed.
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