Jetisoning the docking system...

[astronaut23]

On Apollo's docking system whenever they transfered between the vehicles they had to remove the probe by hand right completly? So when the two got into the LM before going down to the moon the Command Module Pilot had to put the probe back in the tunnel before closing his door right?

So anyway after the lunar landing and rendevous and docking and after another transfer again of taking the probe out of the tunnel did they put the probe back in before the final undocking which blew away the docking system itself? The probe was attached to the part of the command module docking ring that was jetisoned on final undock? Or did they leave the probe actually inside the lunar module itself. And also is did they use the final undock of the LM like the space station does with Progresses when they are through with them. Did they throw everything like the trash they had accumulated so far in the mission behind in the LM. Seems like it would be a good way to get rid of everything in the Command module you don't want to haul back to earth with you.

Ok its a lot of questions. LOL. Just really curious about all this.

[ka9q]

I believe the LM jettison sequence did leave the probe and drogue behind with the LM. It wasn't necessary to install them in the tunnel and they're not visible in pictures of the hatch of the jettisoned LM so I suspect they just tossed them into the LM cabin with the rest of the trash, just as you say. Getting rid of unnecessary weight before the TEI maximized the delta-V attainable with the SPS.

Mike Collins wrote in Carrying the Fire that his probe assembly really seemed to have it out for him, and he was most happy to finally get rid of it.

[Halcyon Dayz, FCD]

That gets me wondering, was there a contingency plan for the CSM pilot becoming incapacitated when the LM was away?

[astronaut23]

Well the lunar module actually had a small docking window in the top of it but I don't think the lunar module was ever the active craft during the docking was is? It was always the command module pilot making the dock from the command module?

[JayUtah]

The LM was the active vehicle in LOR because its guidance platform was better. It had finer-grained accelerometers that gave better intermediate solutions to the rendezvous steps.

[gonetoplaid]

Oct 23, 2010 7:09:13 GMT -4 Halcyon Dayz, FCD said:

That gets me wondering, was there a contingency plan for the CSM pilot becoming incapacitated when the LM was away?

Now that is an interesting question. Hmm. Would the LM crew blow the incapacitated or dead CM pilot out the CM hatch so that the LM crew could then safely return to Earth? If it had to be put to a vote, would the LM crew would win the day?

[astronaut23]

Nov 4, 2010 13:33:10 GMT -4 JayUtah said:

The LM was the active vehicle in LOR because its guidance platform was better. It had finer-grained accelerometers that gave better intermediate solutions to the rendezvous steps.

Ok, but they didn't actually make the dock did they. The CM pilot actually always made the dock from the CM right?

[Bob B.]

Nov 11, 2010 11:31:39 GMT -4 astronaut23 said:

Nov 4, 2010 13:33:10 GMT -4 JayUtah said:

The LM was the active vehicle in LOR because its guidance platform was better. It had finer-grained accelerometers that gave better intermediate solutions to the rendezvous steps.

Ok, but they didn't actually make the dock did they. The CM pilot actually always made the dock from the CM right?

As I recall, the entire rendezvous and docking maneuver was piloted from the LM.

[Jason]

So really, the only thing the CM pilot had to do was open the door once they were docked?

[Jason Thompson]

Nov 6, 2010 19:18:47 GMT -4 gonetoplaid said:

Would the LM crew blow the incapacitated or dead CM pilot out the CM hatch so that the LM crew could then safely return to Earth?

I can't see why it would be necessary to throw the dead man out when the CM is a three man craft. He's not taking up any extra room. OK, so it won't be a pleasant journey home with a cadaver strapped down next to you, but I can't see what would require them to chuck him out rather than bring him home to his family.

[Jason]

Nov 12, 2010 12:43:49 GMT -4 Jason Thompson said:

I can't see why it would be necessary to throw the dead man out when the CM is a three man craft. He's not taking up any extra room. OK, so it won't be a pleasant journey home with a cadaver strapped down next to you, but I can't see what would require them to chuck him out rather than bring him home to his family.

Throwing one of the astronauts out would in fact throw off the weight balance of the CM and might result in the surviving two burning up on reentry.
I am reminded of the scene in Apollo 13 where they had to transfer "ballast" from the LM to the CM to compensate for the missing lunar rocks.

[gonetoplaid]

Nov 12, 2010 17:43:33 GMT -4 Jason said:

Throwing one of the astronauts out would in fact throw off the weight balance of the CM and might result in the surviving two burning up on reentry.
I am reminded of the scene in Apollo 13 where they had to transfer "ballast" from the LM to the CM to compensate for the missing lunar rocks.

That was necessary because NASA forgot that the CM wouldn't be returning to Earth with moon rocks, yet they picked up on this when they realized that AP13's trajectory didn't quite match what was expected after a flight course correction burn.

I was just joking about having to toss an astronaut overboard, but what if a LM crew member really did have to depressurize the CM and then blow the CM hatch in order for the LM crew to gain entry into the CM because the CM pilot already was dead? That was my point, along with possibly a shortage of CSM fuel, without dumping some mass, for return to Earth?

Y'all sometimes takes posts way to seriously instead of seeing the implied humor.

[Kiwi]

Nov 11, 2010 18:38:05 GMT -4 Bob B. said:

As I recall, the entire rendezvous and docking maneuver was piloted from the LM.

Mike Collins says in his book, Carrying The Fire:

Neil has turned Eagle around now, so that its black spot (the drogue used in docking) is directly facing me. Control passes from Eagle to Columbia at this point, as per our training sessons. It is easier to fly the docking maneuver from the command module; although it can be done from the LM, it is awkward for Neil, because he would have to crane his neck to see out an overhead window, whereas I can look straight ahead in a more conventional fashion. So I sight my reticle and align my probe with Eagle's drogue, just as I did five days ago when I pulled the LM loose from the Saturn. There are a few differences, mainly that the puny little LM ascent stage, nearly empty, weighs less than six thousand pounds now instead of the nearly thirty-three thousand both stages weigh when they are full of fuel. However, I am not the slightest bit worried as I draw closer and closer. The alignment looks very good indeed at the instant of contact, which I feel as a barely perceptible little nudge.
-- Carrying The Fire -- An Astronaut's Journeys, Michael Collins, Cooper Square Press, New York, 2001, pages 415-6

The rendezvous manoeuvres, carried out by the LM, are listed in the Apollo 11 Press Kit, published before the mission. Actual times were close to those stated:

Ignition of the LM ascent engine will be at 124:23:21 for a 7 min 14 sec burn with a total velocity of 6,055 fps. Powered ascent is in two phases: vertical ascent for terrain clearance and the orbital insertion phase. Pitchover along the desired launch azimuth begins as the vertical ascent rate reaches 50 fps about 10 seconds after liftoff at about 250 feet in altitude. Insertion into a 9 x 45 nm lunar orbit will take place about 166 nm west of the landing site.

Following LM insertion into lunar orbit, the LM crew will compute onboard the four major maneuvers for rendezvous with the CSM which is about 255 nm ahead of the LM at this point. All maneuvers in the sequence will be made with the LM RCS thrusters. The premission rendezvous sequence maneuvers, times and velocities which likely will differ slightly in real time, are as follows:

Concentric sequence initiate (CSI): At first LM apolune after insertion 125:21:20 GET, 49 fps posigrade, following some 20 minutes of LM rendezvous radar tracking and CSM sextant/VHF ranging navigation. CSI will be targeted to place the LM in an orbit 15 nm below the CSM at the time of the later constant delta height (CDH) maneuver. The CSI burn may also initiate corrections for any out-of-plane dispersions resulting from insertion azimuth errors. Resulting LM orbit after CSI will be 45.5 x 44.2 nm and will have a catchup rate to the CSM of .072 degrees per minute.

Another plane correction is possible about 29 minutes after CSI at the nodal crossing of the CSM and LM orbits to place both vehicles at a common node at the time of the CDH maneuver at 126:19:40 GET.

Terminal phase initiate (TPI): This maneuver occurs at 126:58:26 and adds 24.6 fps along the line of sight toward the CSM when the elevation angle to the CSM reaches 26.6 degrees. The LM orbit becomes 61.2 x 43.2 nm and the catchup rate to the CSM decreases to .032 degrees per second, or a closing rate of 131 fps.

Two midcourse correction maneuvers will be made if needed, followed by four braking maneuvers at: 127:39:43 GET, 11.5 fps; 127:40:56, 9.8 fps; 127:42:35 GET, 4.8 fps; and at 127:43:54 GET, 4.7 fps. Docking nominally will take place at 128 hours GET to end three and one-half hours of the rendezvous sequence.
-- Apollo 11 Press Kit, pages 52-3

[astronaut23]

Thanks thats what I thought that the CM pilot actually did the actual contact and capture from the command module even if the LM was the active vehicle during most of the rendezvous.