|
Post by drewid on Jan 18, 2011 16:07:05 GMT -4
Aldrin says that Borman turned the offer down in "Magnificent Desolation". Or at least says that's what he had heard.
Also he says that Armstrong was chosen because it was easiest for the person standing on the left of the capsule to exit first in the cramped conditions.
|
|
|
Post by Glom on Jan 18, 2011 19:07:16 GMT -4
The left hand position is naturally going to be that of the CDR. They could have hinged the door the other way if they wanted. I imagined it seemed a sensible enough protocol to have the commander egress first. After all, wasn't the LMP supposed to pilot the ascent? He needs to remain in the LM in case the CDR is eaten by Moon monsters. If the LMP was eaten by Moon monsters, who would fly the LM back to the CSM?
Michael Collins alleges in his book that Aldrin was peeved that he didn't get to be the first man on the moon.
|
|
|
Post by Obviousman on Jan 19, 2011 2:33:28 GMT -4
In previous missions (Gemini), the "co-pilot" had always conducted the EVA. This procedure was written into the initial lunar checklists. Once the LM design had been finalised, they found that the LM fwd hatch had the hinge on the right for a couple of reasons. This meant that unless the crew changed position after landing (a very difficult manoeuvre) the CDR had to exit first.
Aldrin did push for him to be first (who wouldn't) but the LM design meant the CDR would be first.
|
|
|
Post by gonetoplaid on Jan 26, 2011 2:17:17 GMT -4
...I came across an unverified claim that Deke Slayton offered the chance of commanding the first Moon landing to attempt to Borman and then McDivvit, who both refused. True, at least with regards to Borman. Borman turned down Slayton's offer made in the fall of 1968. Slayton had entertained the idea of assigning Borman's crew for the first moon landing, followed by McDivitt's crew for Apollo 12 if Borman failed on the first landing attempt. Slayton's potential shakeup of crew assignments became acedemic when Borman turned down the offer. The above information is from the book A Man On The Moon by Andrew Chaikin, pages 137-138.
|
|
|
Post by lukepemberton on Jan 26, 2011 2:24:47 GMT -4
If the LMP was eaten by Moon monsters, who would fly the LM back to the CSM? The soundcrew... it's blinking obvious when you think about it. There were also the make up artists who applied the fake lunar dust to the spacesuits. They were on hand to fly back to the CSM. I do think humour is a good way to show that one does not take the conspiracy theory seriously. Ahhh, a knock at the door, that will be NASA with the dirtbags of money.
|
|
|
Post by Obviousman on Jan 26, 2011 7:40:02 GMT -4
The LMP was trained as such. The CDR has greater time in the sim / LLTV, but the LMP could have taken over in all situations.
|
|
|
Post by ka9q on Jan 29, 2011 2:18:36 GMT -4
I don't know if that's true. The title LMP was a misnomer; he was really more of a flight engineer, but they all wanted to be pilots.
That said, even airline flight engineers are pilots and can take the controls alone if they have to. And a lunar ascent was much less tricky than a lunar descent.
|
|
|
Post by suele on Apr 24, 2011 5:02:21 GMT -4
After all, wasn't the LMP supposed to pilot the ascent? He needs to remain in the LM in case the CDR is eaten by Moon monsters. If the LMP was eaten by Moon monsters, who would fly the LM back to the CSM? If Borman was offered the job, maybe that's why he said no. He wanted to send someone else out first, to see if it was safe.
|
|
|
Post by Obviousman on Apr 24, 2011 7:37:03 GMT -4
I agree the title was a misnomer, and the concept for the LMP's duties was that of systems monitoring, but I think it is unfair to downgrade the responsibility of the position.
Firstly, they were all pilots - even Jack Schmitt.
Secondly, it is unlikely the CDR could have landed the LM without the assistance of the LMP. They gave LPDs, altitude, h-dot, v-dot, etc. Even if the CDR decide to go with P65 (full autoland) I think they would have had too much on their hands.
Lastly, as I said before, all the LMPs were trained to fly the LM.
|
|
|
Post by PUshift on Apr 24, 2011 9:48:12 GMT -4
Wasn't Armstrong chosen because he was a civilian? As far I remember from any book (could be "How Apollo flew to the moon") civilians were excluded for the Mercury program and this restriction was repealed then for Gemini and Apollo.
|
|
|
Post by Obviousman on Apr 24, 2011 15:17:24 GMT -4
IIRC the qualification was for jet hours and to be a TP, which meant that only military (or ex-military) would be eligible. There was a requirement for security clearance, which might be used to bar or delay a civilian candidate. In any case, the initial offers to apply as a candidate were chosen from a list of military people. I am unsure if any were not active military.
|
|
|
Post by Jason Thompson on Apr 24, 2011 18:04:02 GMT -4
If Borman was offered the job, maybe that's why he said no. He wanted to send someone else out first, to see if it was safe. I think that suggestion comes close to an insult to the men of the space program. Do you really think that a man who agreed to a) be the first to ride the largest, most powerful rocket ever built and b) be the first to leave low Earth orbit and fly all the way to the moon, trusting his return to Earth to the successful operation of the one engine on his spacecraft that could get him out of lunar orbit, would have the attitude of 'send someone first to check it's safe'?
|
|
|
Post by suele on Apr 25, 2011 2:56:15 GMT -4
I think that suggestion comes close to an insult to the men of the space program. Do you really think that a man who agreed to a) be the first to ride the largest, most powerful rocket ever built and b) be the first to leave low Earth orbit and fly all the way to the moon, trusting his return to Earth to the successful operation of the one engine on his spacecraft that could get him out of lunar orbit, would have the attitude of 'send someone first to check it's safe'? And here I thought the silliness would be coming from the hoax people. Very well: An Open Letter to Former Astronaut Frank Borman: Dear Colonel Borman: Recently, while engaged in the sort of lofty and elevated conversation that is typical of internet discussion boards, someone mentioned a rumour that you had been offered the opportunity to become the first person to set foot on the moon, but turned it down. I do not know whether there is any truth to this rumour or not, but that is not why I am writing you. In the same discussion, someone mentioned that the order in which the two astronauts step onto the moon was affected by the possibility of being eaten by moon monsters, and the need to make sure that, if the first astronaut out the door were eaten by moon monsters, the surviving astronaut would be capable of piloting the lunar landing craft back into lunar orbit for rendezvous and eventual return to earth. Still within the same discussion, I quoted the above comment, and suggested that perhaps it was the fear of being eaten by moon monsters that caused you to turn down the offer to be first on the moon. I hereby retract my comment, and apologize for in any way suggesting that it was fear of being eaten by moon monsters that prevented you from accepting the offer to be the first person on the moon (if the offer had actually been made). I am sure that at no point in your Apollo career did you in any way shirk from the ever present danger of being eaten by moon monsters, and regret ever having suggested otherwise. Having just asked for the great favour of your pardon for my unwarranted and unprovoked attack on your honour and courage, I hope I am not too audacious if I also ask for a small favour. Could you please join the internet discussion board, apollohoax.proboards.com, and inform Jason Thompson that there are no moon monsters, that all of the Apollo astronauts knew this, and that almost everyone knows that they knew this? If you are willing to indulge me on this matter, I should be most grateful. Thank you for listening, and I hope you accept my apology. Your Apollo flights have been a great inspiration to many, and I am sure I speak for us all when I say we are glad you were not eaten by moon monsters. Regards, Suele
|
|
|
Post by ka9q on Apr 25, 2011 8:06:21 GMT -4
I agree the title was a misnomer, and the concept for the LMP's duties was that of systems monitoring, but I think it is unfair to downgrade the responsibility of the position. Oh, I'm not downgrading it at all. Both positions took an enormous amount of training and practice. But they were very different, and so was their training. I seriously doubt they could have swapped positions in flight without a lot of previous practice. In the sense that they were licensed to fly aircraft, yes.Absolutely. For all the emphasis on computer "firsts", Apollo was an amazingly manual spacecraft by modern standards.I'm still very skeptical about this. Buzz Aldrin remarked after the flight that he was alarmed by the large attitude changes Neil Armstrong made as he flew the final approach. Aldrin explained this as due to his own unfamiliarity with the dynamics of the LM in lunar gravity. It behaves much like a helicopter in that a mostly-downward thrust supports the weight of the vehicle, and by deflecting this thrust vector you can accelerate or decelerate laterally. Because lunar gravity is 1/6 earth's, the LM descent engine only provides 1/6 of the thrust that it would have to generate to hover on earth (which of course it cannot do). But all of the LM's mass is still there, so it takes much larger deflections from the vertical to provide a given amount of horizontal acceleration. Getting used to this kind of thing was exactly why the commanders spent so much time flying the LLRV/LLTVs. But the LMPs didn't fly the LLTV, so they didn't get the same kind of "feel" for how the LM behaved -- hence Aldrin's alarm at the large attitude excursions that Armstrong knew he had to make.
|
|
|
Post by Jason Thompson on Apr 25, 2011 8:20:41 GMT -4
Wow, suele, do you think you could manage to be a bit more obnoxious and sarcastic? Sorry if I missed the humour in your original post, but a) plain text is not the best way to convey it, and a smiley might have helped, and b) a simple 'yes, I was joking' would suffice.
|
|