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Post by LunarOrbit on Mar 2, 2011 20:27:41 GMT -4
kimchijjigae, you're being ridiculous. It's one thing to be skeptical, but you're being completely unreasonable. The amount of evidence NASA has provided should be more than enough convince anyone that they're telling the truth.
I challenge you to prove that you are real and not just a figment of my imagination.
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Post by randombloke on Mar 2, 2011 20:37:46 GMT -4
I cannot seriously be the only one who finds it deeply ironic that the guy accusing everyone of making "copy & paste arguments" is making the same claims as every other HB we've ever had, in almost the same order?
Starting from "no proof!" we go to "the proof was faked!" by way of "I never made any assertions, so why should I back them up? Not that I made any of course" and so on, with recursions over that loop for each topic covered. So far he's done the same routine for the LRRRs, the rocks and the entire Apollo record in general. Probably the photographs are next.
The only "novelty" (in quote-marks because its not actually new) is that he's tried to throw out all of epistemology, as if that helps....
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Post by kimchijjigae on Mar 2, 2011 20:38:13 GMT -4
When did I ever say that? You have to prove that all of the 800 pounds of lunar samples were tested. I don't think anyone will be able to do that.
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Post by lukepemberton on Mar 2, 2011 20:42:32 GMT -4
Without a complete list of all of the samples identified by their numbers with a picture of them and their respective weights, we still can't know if all of the 800 pounds of lunar rocks were tested. Let's explain this in simple terms: Space Ship Zeus 10 goes to Mars, and brings back 100 rocks. 25 of them are tested, as that 25 represent different geological samples. The other 75 are not tested, as they have been collected from similar regions to other the other 25 rocks. After all, the chief geologist in charge of the investigation has a finite budget, and needs to make a decision which rocks should be tested to give the greatest amount of scientific data. The 25 that are tested show small alien fossils never seen on Earth. The 25 rocks also contain different minerals never seen on Earth, show different oxidation states, different elemental compositions, exposure to ionising radiation, different isotope ratios, exposure to the solar wind, no secondary minerals. The differences are startling, so much so, that there is a high degree of confidence that the rocks did not come from Earth. Does it matter that the other 75 were tested, if the 25 show all the evidence of being formed on another planet. Should we call Zeus's mission into question. I explained the philosophy of proof in my first reply. Proof is not a simple metric based on the proportion of samples tested. We don't say that we are 25% confident that the mission happened because 25% of the rocks were tested. That's what your argument advocates, and it is not how confidence is determined in science. You really need to re-examine your idea of scientific proof.
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Post by chew on Mar 2, 2011 20:46:59 GMT -4
When did I ever say that? You have to prove that all of the 800 pounds of lunar samples were tested. I don't think anyone will be able to do that. All NASA has to prove is that one sample from each mission was tested and proven to come from the Moon because there is an unbroken chain of custody for all the return samples.
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Post by kimchijjigae on Mar 2, 2011 20:48:37 GMT -4
If they only tested 25% of the alleged 800 pounds they brought back, then we only have confirmed that 200 pounds were indeed of lunar origin. Can we bring back 200 pounds using an unmanned probe? I don't know. But perhaps it is.
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Post by kimchijjigae on Mar 2, 2011 20:50:47 GMT -4
If all the researches tested a small quantity, then who knows if they just sent an unmanned probe and brought back small quantities of rocks like the Soviets? What other proofs do you have against that possibility?
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Post by slang on Mar 2, 2011 20:54:19 GMT -4
When did I ever say that? You have to prove that all of the 800 pounds of lunar samples were tested. I don't think anyone will be able to do that. Let's, for the sake of the argument, assume that I right now present you with a list of international universities that examined each gram of Apollo lunar samples, complete with telephone numbers and all that would prove to you sufficiently without a shred of doubt that each and every sample did indeed come from the moon. Now be honest. At that point you will just claim that it is possible that NASA had developed sufficiently advanced remote controlled craft that brought the samples to Earth, or some other imaginary scheme that would fit the evidence without involving men on the moon. Right?
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Post by slang on Mar 2, 2011 20:56:02 GMT -4
If all the researches tested a small quantity, then who knows if they just sent an unmanned probe and brought back small quantities of rocks like the Soviets? What other proofs do you have against that possibility? No. What proof do you have for that possibility? Don't shift the burden of proof.
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Post by kimchijjigae on Mar 2, 2011 20:56:52 GMT -4
When did I ever say that? You have to prove that all of the 800 pounds of lunar samples were tested. I don't think anyone will be able to do that. Let's, for the sake of the argument, assume that I right now present you with a list of international universities that examined each gram of Apollo lunar samples, complete with telephone numbers and all that would prove to you sufficiently without a shred of doubt that each and every sample did indeed come from the moon. Now be honest. At that point you will just claim that NASA had developed sufficiently advanced remote controlled craft that brought the samples to Earth, or some other imaginary scheme that would fit the evidence without involving men on the moon. Right? Why would I do that?
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Post by LunarOrbit on Mar 2, 2011 20:57:27 GMT -4
If they only tested 25% of the alleged 800 pounds they brought back, then we only have confirmed that 200 pounds were indeed of lunar origin. Can we bring back 200 pounds using an unmanned probe? I don't know. But perhaps it is. How about you start by proving that there was even just one robotic lunar sample return mission launched by the United States. I'll say it again... if NASA used robotic landers to return samples to Earth they would have had to be designed, built, tested, launched, and returned by people. Why have none of these people come forward to talk about the robotic probes? Surely it would drive them crazy to have to keep quiet about their greatest achievement.
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Post by kimchijjigae on Mar 2, 2011 20:57:37 GMT -4
If all the researches tested a small quantity, then who knows if they just sent an unmanned probe and brought back small quantities of rocks like the Soviets? What other proofs do you have against that possibility? No. What proof do you have for that possibility? Don't shift the burden of proof. I don't believe that men didn't go to the moon.
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Post by kimchijjigae on Mar 2, 2011 20:59:27 GMT -4
If they only tested 25% of the alleged 800 pounds they brought back, then we only have confirmed that 200 pounds were indeed of lunar origin. Can we bring back 200 pounds using an unmanned probe? I don't know. But perhaps it is. How about you start by proving that there was even just one robotic lunar sample return mission launched by the United States. I'll say it again... if NASA used robotic landers to return samples to Earth they would have had to be designed, built, tested, launched, and returned by people. Why have none of these people come forward to talk about the robotic probes? Surely it would drive them crazy to have to keep quiet about their greatest achievement. Why would they do that? And to what extent is the media free to broadcast anything it want? And who would believe a single man? They would have to be a dozen at least IMO.
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Post by laurel on Mar 2, 2011 21:00:23 GMT -4
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Genesis Rock was quite distinctive, and we have video of the Apollo 15 crew finding it, and we have photos of it on the Moon before the Apollo 15 crew brought it back, and we know it was studied on Earth. I guess kimchijjigae would have us believe that an unmanned probe just coincidentally happened to find an identical rock.
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Post by chew on Mar 2, 2011 21:02:39 GMT -4
If all the researches tested a small quantity, then who knows if they just sent an unmanned probe and brought back small quantities of rocks like the Soviets? What other proofs do you have against that possibility? The Soviets were able to bring back about 326 grams of lunar material in 3 sample return missions. Apollo brought back large rocks, regolith, and drilled core samples. The proof of an alternative theory is your burden.
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