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Post by fattydash on Jul 6, 2011 21:00:01 GMT -4
For ka9q. Of course the other 2 astronauts did not get sick. Borman is not sick to begin with.
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Post by LunarOrbit on Jul 6, 2011 21:04:53 GMT -4
the evaluation was inadequate, not appropriate. One would not be able to determine cause of illness without an appropriate evaluation. If the medical examinations were deemed classified for privacy reasons then you have no way of knowing whether it was adequate or not. Your whole argument is baseless for that reason alone.
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Post by ka9q on Jul 6, 2011 21:29:24 GMT -4
Actually, I think all that Apollo medical stuff that might have originally been classified was declassified long ago. There are quite a few documents on NTRS such as the transcripts of the intercom recorder that were originally stamped 'confidential", but they were all declassified without any redactions.
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Post by scooter on Jul 6, 2011 21:34:09 GMT -4
Now, what are the chances of our "doctor" ffriend going to the trouble of researching these obscure bits of information? Negligable, I would bet.
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Post by fattydash on Jul 6, 2011 21:50:45 GMT -4
For Lunar Orbit.
The actions following the evaluation, for example, what to do about a cabin contaminated with feces, are not actions consistant with the threat so presented. If an appropriate evaluation occurred, they would have done more than simply tried their best to pick the feces out of the air. They would have at the very least discussed doing a lot more. But the astronauts go about their business as if nothing happened in a cabin which should be presumed to have pathogenic bacteria on every surface and in the air as well. And this should be the medical posture until proven otherwise. That is not to say bacterial gastroenteritis is the correct diagnosis, but it does need to be respected as one of many possible explanations for Borman's illness until proven otherwise.
The activity in the cabin after the diarrhea episode is not commensurate with activity of competent individuals assessing and addressing the problem as presented. Ergo, the problem cannot be real given the stakes. There is no possibility for pathogenic bacteria on every surface because the diarrhea in the cabin never occurred. The whole thing is fake.
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Post by fattydash on Jul 6, 2011 21:52:38 GMT -4
Scooter, if you have a reference where I might be able to read/hear the discussions between doctors and astronauts, anything of that nature, I would be very keen on taking a look for obvious reasons.
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Post by echnaton on Jul 6, 2011 22:07:45 GMT -4
For ethnaton. the evaluation was inadequate, not appropriate. One would not be able to determine cause of illness without an appropriate evaluation. You don't know that it was inadequate because, by you have not seen the full record. All you know is that what you have seen does not meet your expectations. You have refused to answer the basic question of why your expectations are meaningful.
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Post by LunarOrbit on Jul 6, 2011 22:14:05 GMT -4
How do you know they didn't? Were you there? What makes you think there should be a transcript of every conversation ever had at NASA? What further precautions, short of never returning to space, could NASA have taken to prevent future "diarrhea episodes"? Seal the astronauts in a layer of waterproof plastic? Is the ISS fake too, or has someone cured diarrhea since 1972 and neglected to inform me? You know what? It's 2011 and there still isn't a 100% guaranty that one of my co-workers won't have explosive diarrhea at his desk next to mine. I guess I should stop going to work. Or maybe it means my job is an elaborate hoax because obviously I wouldn't risk going to the office every day with all those potentially explosive asses in such close proximity. Or maybe... just maybe... it wasn't considered as serious a problem as you make it out to be.
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Post by fattydash on Jul 6, 2011 22:23:25 GMT -4
I read in Chaikin's book that despite the doctors' concern, it was too late to bring Apollo 8 home immediately. So aborting the mission was not an option, though that would have been my preference, bruing it back ASAP.
What was aboard Apollo, what was available, soap, water, anything else? One would begin with making a serious effort to clean all of the surfaces and clean them well with whatever was available. This would be the place to start. Also, the astronauts should be ordered not to touch their mouths. Special precautions should be recommended about what to do at meal time.
The food on board, regardless of pre blastoff perception would/should be viewed as a possible source of infection, as would the water supply. Instructions would need to be given as to how best one might evaluate the drinking water and the food, both that which was already ingested and meals not yet consumed.
There would be much more. But these things are worth considering as a start.
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Post by laurel on Jul 6, 2011 22:27:17 GMT -4
What was aboard Apollo, what was available, soap, water, anything else? One would begin with making a serious effort to clean all of the surfaces and clean them well with whatever was available. This would be the place to start. I already told one of your BAUT socks that they used moist towelettes to clean up the cabin, remember? That's in Chaikin's book too.
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Post by fattydash on Jul 6, 2011 22:38:21 GMT -4
Tedward.
The prioblem is one cannot get at the astronauts. So in such a situation, doctors would assume many thisngs to be possible, including infectious diease problems. They would act accordingly. Ask the astronauts to take their temperatures, try and assess Borman for dehydration and so forth. Often times, even with very sick patients in a hospital where there is tons of technology to sort things out, we may not know for some time, in certain cases a long time, what exactly is wrong with someone. We treat them, treat the situation, as though those problems deemed most likely are in fact responsible. And then you go from there.
Think about AIDS, back in 1980. No one knew what was going on. we assumed it to be related to an infectious agent and behaved accordingly.
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Post by ka9q on Jul 6, 2011 22:47:59 GMT -4
I read in Chaikin's book that despite the doctors' concern, it was too late to bring Apollo 8 home immediately. So aborting the mission was not an option, though that would have been my preference, bruing it back ASAP. Doesn't that seem just a bit drastic since by the time the ground found out about Borman's episode he had already recovered, and neither of the other astronauts were reporting any problems? It sure sounds to me like you aren't as knowledgeable about this mission as you present yourself to be. Apollo missions weren't cheap, so aborting one was not a decision to be taken lightly. There were any number of risks that had been consciously accepted by everyone involved, and medical illnesses were one of those risks.
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Post by fattydash on Jul 6, 2011 22:51:59 GMT -4
He recovered because he was never sick. Say he really did have salmonella gastroenteritis. More likely than not, if the thing were real, 3 guys in a can with bugs everywhere, they would all get very sick and remain so until they got home, if they got home. It's no big deal because it is not real.
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Post by ka9q on Jul 6, 2011 22:54:23 GMT -4
He recovered because he was never sick. Yes, you are quite probably correct that Borman never had an infectious illness as he most likely suffered from space adaptation syndrome ("space sickness"). This was only the second Apollo flight so NASA had little experience with spacecraft large enough for astronauts to move around. It doesn't seem to happen in more cramped cockpits like those of Mercury or Gemini. Space adaptation syndrome also appears to be distinct from ordinary motion sickness as it often happens even to highly experienced military jet pilots. Roughly 50% of astronauts get it during their first space flights, and the only predictor seems to be the previous space experience of the astronaut in question -- which means there's no way to know if a rookie astronaut will get sick. So rookies are now taught to take it easy during their first day in space, especially avoiding rapid head movements, until they know how they'll react. Frank Borman may have been the first American astronaut to suffer from space adaptation syndrome but he wasn't the last. On the very next mission, Rusty Schweikart got sick enough that his originally planned EVA had to be greatly curtailed. At least in his case his condition was recognized for what it was and not confused with an infectious illness.
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Post by laurel on Jul 6, 2011 22:58:58 GMT -4
What does salmonella have to do with this? Why is it so hard to believe that an astronaut could become temporarily ill because of space adaptation syndrome or a bad reaction to Seconal? BTW, Bill Pogue suffered from nausea and vomiting at the beginning of his Skylab mission and NASA didn't abort the mission, so does that mean Skylab was faked?
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