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BS FAQs
Aug 16, 2005 10:51:47 GMT -4
Post by JayUtah on Aug 16, 2005 10:51:47 GMT -4
Elsewhere Sibrel argues that the USSR was so far ahead of the United States in space that it was impossible for us to catch up. Now he argues that the Soviets couldn't even see our poor little spacecraft. Which is it? This type of contradiction frequently arises in make-it-up-as-you-go historical analysis.
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BS FAQs
Aug 16, 2005 11:14:15 GMT -4
Post by PhantomWolf on Aug 16, 2005 11:14:15 GMT -4
Japan, however, sent a probe to the moon about six years ago that did have this capability. Unfortunately, as soon as it entered lunar orbit all five of its cameras simultaneously malfunctioned.Just found this: pages.preferred.com/~tedstryk/Hiten.htmlLooks like the cameras were working right up to the final lunar impact. Sounds like they suffered the same fault as the Ranger Probes. Highly suspicous.
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BS FAQs
Aug 16, 2005 11:57:14 GMT -4
Post by gwiz on Aug 16, 2005 11:57:14 GMT -4
Looks like the cameras were working right up to the final lunar impact. Sounds like they suffered the same fault as the Ranger Probes. Highly suspicous. Perhaps I should rephrase that: Looks like the cameras were working during the descent, returning pictures right up to the instant of the final lunar impact. Only the first of the four Ranger probes with TV cameras failed, the other three were major successes.
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BS FAQs
Aug 16, 2005 13:20:07 GMT -4
Post by JayUtah on Aug 16, 2005 13:20:07 GMT -4
At the risk of misapplying sarcasm, I think PhantomWolf is referring to the fact that the U.S. Ranger spacecraft were designed to fly straight into the lunar surface, taking pictures all the way in. The Hiten mission profile appears to be very similar. The cameras on both types of spacecraft -- along with the rest of the spacecraft systems -- "failed" on lunar impact.
A transmitter failed on Hiten's orbiter, but the orbiter had no imaging equipment anyway.
The fact remains that the Japanese surface probe functioned as designed and was not intended to take confirmatory photographs of the Apollo landing sites.
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BS FAQs
Aug 16, 2005 15:33:29 GMT -4
Post by sts60 on Aug 16, 2005 15:33:29 GMT -4
I'd like to hear what margamatix thinks about Bart Sibrel's credibility at this point. He says BS is but one of his sources, but he has quoted him approvingly and many of his arguments are exactly the same as Sibrel's.
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BS FAQs
Aug 16, 2005 15:37:59 GMT -4
Post by sts60 on Aug 16, 2005 15:37:59 GMT -4
BS: By the way, it is a federal crime for a civilian to be in possession of a moon rock, so how can there truly be independent verification?
Jay: Hogwash. It is against the law to own an Apollo sample. Obtaining one for the purpose of scientific study -- such as to verify its authenticity -- is simply a matter of some paperwork.
BS' statement is doubly wrong. The vast majority of scientists and technicians who have possession of lunar samples are civilians, and have been since the time the Navy recovery teams handed them over. By Bart's logic, NASA would be busy arresting its own people for "having possession" of the samples!
But in Bartworld, you don't have to make any sense.
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BS FAQs
Aug 16, 2005 16:19:57 GMT -4
Post by JayUtah on Aug 16, 2005 16:19:57 GMT -4
But many conspiracists consider NASA either a military or paramilitary organization and thus use the word "civilian" also to me someone not affiliated with NASA. Still doubly wrong, of course.
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BS FAQs
Aug 16, 2005 18:18:59 GMT -4
Post by Sticks on Aug 16, 2005 18:18:59 GMT -4
But this is hardly surprising as the first astronauts came from the US Airforce test pilots?
History may have moved on, but perception sticks
Here in Newcastle we have a centre that looks after social security and other parts of the Inland Revenue. Although officially it is not a ministry of anything now, people still refer to it as The Ministry. They also still believe all civil servants wear shirts and ties, wear bowler hats, carry umbrellas and only drink tea.
Reality moved on but perception lags behind, so perhaps it is with NASA, given the from where their astronauts came from.
BTW what happened to the X programme, did that go overr to NASA or stay with the USAF???
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BS FAQs
Aug 16, 2005 19:36:06 GMT -4
Post by scooter on Aug 16, 2005 19:36:06 GMT -4
Hi Sticks...
Al Shepard was Navy, and John Glenn was a Marine flier... Nasa has always has a good mix of pilots from all the services (Apollo 12 was all Navy), and there is always a friendly rivalry among them...but it doesn't affect the mission in any way.
Dave
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Bob B.
Bob the Excel Guru?
Posts: 3,072
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BS FAQs
Aug 16, 2005 20:40:17 GMT -4
Post by Bob B. on Aug 16, 2005 20:40:17 GMT -4
Hi Sticks... Al Shepard was Navy, and John Glenn was a Marine flier... Scott Carpenter and Wally Schirra were also Navy. Thus the original seven were three Air Force (Grissom, Cooper, Slayton), three Navy (Shepard, Carpenter, Schirra), and one Marine (Glenn).
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BS FAQs
Aug 16, 2005 22:08:32 GMT -4
Post by PhantomWolf on Aug 16, 2005 22:08:32 GMT -4
At the risk of misapplying sarcasmWell you can misapply my sacrcasm as you want Jay, but this time you're dead right. The successful Ranger Probes (I think that there were actually four in total, 5, 7, 8, 9) had their camera's "mysteriously" ceasing to function right after impact. One wonders if we can apply this sort of logic to the Begal 2 as well.
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BS FAQs
Aug 16, 2005 23:15:00 GMT -4
Post by PhantomWolf on Aug 16, 2005 23:15:00 GMT -4
...in reality these rocks are probably just meteorites that were retrieved on Earth.Qualified geologists know how to distinguish samples from meteorites. Sibrel is handwaving here. He cannot explain the moon rocks. Von Braun, the director of the program, visited Antarctica a few months before the missions to retrieve these meteorites.W. von Braun was the head of the engineering aspects of the program. He was not in charge of the entire Apollo project. Why would you send an engineer and not a geologist to recover lunar meteorites? In fact, von Braun went to Antarctica on vacation; there is no evidence whatsoever he was there to get moon rocks. And his visit predates the discovery of lunar meteorites in Antarctica. I think this is one of the best sites I know to totally disprove the Apollo Lunar Sample = Lunites myth that the HB's like to throw about. - Lunites have fusion crusts. Apollo samples don't - Lunites are indiscriminate. Apollo Samples are selective - Lunites are all rocks. Apollo samples include core samples and trench soil samples - There have been only 39 discovered originating Lunite rocks the largest being 13.5 kg, most being less than a kilogram. The Apollo samples consist of 380kg worth of rocks - The first Lunite was discovered in 1979. Apollo returned its samples in 1969 - The first Lunite was identified after 1982. The USSR compared its samples to the Apollo ones in 1972 - Lunites were identified by geologists because of their similarity to the Apollo Samples. - Lunites came from all over the moon, not just small areas like the Apollo samples which where take within a short range of the landing sites.
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BS FAQs
Aug 17, 2005 0:14:26 GMT -4
Post by Sticks on Aug 17, 2005 0:14:26 GMT -4
Hi Sticks... Al Shepard was Navy, and John Glenn was a Marine flier... Nasa has always has a good mix of pilots from all the services (Apollo 12 was all Navy), and there is always a friendly rivalry among them...but it doesn't affect the mission in any way. Dave I stand corrected on this one, for some reason I thought they were all USAF, possibly the X15 project confusing things here. BTW what happened to that project?
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BS FAQs
Aug 17, 2005 1:12:10 GMT -4
Post by Sticks on Aug 17, 2005 1:12:10 GMT -4
Mind you my point remains the same, that the astronauts came from the various services may have fueled the perception that NASA is a military or paramilitary organization , even though that is wrong.
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BS FAQs
Aug 17, 2005 3:18:07 GMT -4
Post by gwiz on Aug 17, 2005 3:18:07 GMT -4
Al Shepard was Navy, and John Glenn was a Marine flier... Nasa has always has a good mix of pilots from all the services (Apollo 12 was all Navy), and there is always a friendly rivalry among them...but it doesn't affect the mission in any way. Dave I stand corrected on this one, for some reason I thought they were all USAF, possibly the X15 project confusing things here. BTW what happened to that project? The X-15 programme ended and the surviving vehicles are in museums, No 1 at NASM, No 2 at the AF museum, No 3 destroyed in a crash. X-15 pilots included civilians (contractor and NASA) as well as military, not all USAF. Current X-series vehicles can come under either military or NASA sponsorship. ..and Neil Armstrong was a civilian, having resigned from the military before becoming an astronaut.
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