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Post by lordoftherings on Oct 1, 2005 15:46:05 GMT -4
you say "any rocket planes he designed", so he was involved in X rockets. Anyhow, let us close this topic. There are far more important points to discuss.
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Al Johnston
"Cheer up!" they said, "It could be worse!" So I did, and it was.
Posts: 1,453
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Post by Al Johnston on Oct 1, 2005 15:52:35 GMT -4
It means no such thing: the X-planes were (and are) a specific series of aircraft designed and built for research purposes in the US from just after WWII to the present. Werher von Braun was not involved at any stage of their design or manufacture.
Not all of the X-planes were powered by rockets and not all planes powered by rockets are X-planes.
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Post by sts60 on Oct 1, 2005 16:41:07 GMT -4
If you wish to close the topic, and concede these materials you quoted were riddled with errors, that's fine with me. But please don't do what margamatix does and bring up new topics freely while very rarely addressing the many refutations of the material.
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Post by lordoftherings on Oct 1, 2005 18:24:49 GMT -4
It seems both of us misread the site, he said the rockets were designed. later, the x-rockets.he didn't specify which rockets. however, he says that braun "envisioned a use for these eXperimental Rocket Planes". That is different from designing (he has a weak english, like me
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Al Johnston
"Cheer up!" they said, "It could be worse!" So I did, and it was.
Posts: 1,453
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Post by Al Johnston on Oct 1, 2005 18:54:47 GMT -4
What's this "we" stuff? Not all experimental aircraft are X-planes either. regardless of unconventional capitalisation
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Post by PhantomWolf on Oct 1, 2005 21:46:42 GMT -4
Secondly, I do think it's a serious shame that you aren't interested in the real history. Listen Phantomwolf I am ashamed only of what makes me ashamed, wrong acts, evil doing... if I do this, it is shameful.No one has the right to say I should be ashamed of not having interest in space history. If I have an interest in environmental science history and you don't, just doesn't cause you to be shameful. Something being a shame and being ashamed of something are two totally different concepts. To be ashamed is to be embarased or feel guilty about something. If something is a shame, then it is regretable or sad. Since you have stated that your English is not the best, I hope this clears up the misunderstanding As to von Bruan and the X-Planes. It doesn't really matter if he designed a rocketplane or not, it was never built and had nothing to do with the US X-Planes. The X-Planes were a series of planes that the US Air Force, in conjuntion with NACA, and later NASA when they took over from NACA in 1958, used to study various things from supersonic flight to the heat shielding material for the Apollo capsules. There is an excellent site that deals with all of the X-Planes here, including the contractors who designed and built them. von Bruan worked for the Army from the time he went to the US until his unit, then the Army Ballistic Missile Agency (ABMA) was absorbed into NASA. At that point he was working on the Saturn Rockets and continued on them until his retirement in 1973 after Apollo. Quite simply, he never worked on the US X-Planes.
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Post by lordoftherings on Oct 2, 2005 4:28:59 GMT -4
"Werner Von Braun was among the leading German-American scientists working on this project from the beginning in the very late 1940's. From that time, the late 40's to early 1950's Werner Von Braun developed the underlying basis of deep space travel that became the basis for the US space program, which has not changed that much to this very day!!!! It was in the late 40's to early 50's that Von Braun envisioned a use for these eXperimental Rocket Planes. He foresaw them being used as 'Space Shuttles' that could ferry up into space men and materials in order to build orbiting space stations far above the earth. This was Von Braun's, von Brain storm. But, Von Braun was a man well before his time. "
the author doesn't make it clear which rocket project Braun worked with, but he says that Braun " foresaw them being used as 'Space Shuttles' ". He says that Rockets were developed, later the X-rockets, and Braun was involved in the project, but doesn't mke it clear which rockets he work for. Anyhow, the most interesting part is the admissions.
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Post by PhantomWolf on Oct 2, 2005 10:27:43 GMT -4
My main problem with the way the Author handles Braun, is that he builds him up as the person who dreamed up this wonderful idea, the X-plane, saying he foresaw the shuttle and was ahead of his time. He gives the impression that von Braun was the inspiration and perfered the planes. He then later ges n abut how the top Ballistic Missile scientists were scard of putting men on them and didn't know what they were doing. So on one hand he builds him up to create this impression that the X-Planes were his idea, and n the other he rips him apart but doesn't actually tell the reader that the very person that's is being pulled down is that same as the one that he'd built up a few paragraphs higher. Why didn't he point out that von Braun was the force behind the USA's ballistic missiles? Because that wuld have destroyed his whole argument that the X-15 was the main plan and the Rocket was a late second done in a hurry to try and catch the Russians. Had he told the truth but the US Ballistic Missile Program, Mercury suddenly isn't an amazing feat out of nothing. Pointing out that von Braun had written a book on going to the moon via a rocketship in 1953 again would have totally destroyed his argument that von Braun wanted shuttles and the X-15 was the way to go. Had mercury failed, the X-15 would likely have been used to at least claim a man in space (though NASA only just recently acknowledged it's X-15 pilots as astronuats so even tht's doubtful) but it never would have made orbit, it wasn't capable of that, it was a suborbital craft. (Spaceship 1 went 4 miles higher than the X-15 ever did.)
The "admissions" are unsupported heresay, and remain so, and when the Author's history which he creates to try and support these admissions just doesn't gel because it is so abomnible that it doesn't hold water it also casts major doubt on the "admissions" themselves.
That and the "admissions" have things that disobey the law's of physics. For instance:
The son, Rob, told me, and this I cannot confirm, as it is not in the history books, but he claimed that prior to the first 'recorded' X-15 flight into space that another flight had also entered space. However, that craft, along with the pilot on board, never returned to earth. Rather, the pilot was actually the 'first' man to orbit earth. Rob Moore told me that the pilot blasted off his rockets with the order to go up 'full throttle' and to keep going as far and as high as the X-15 would go. The rocket only had enough fuel for about 4 minutes of blast time. He ran the fuel out, but before he did, he had become the first man in space and had reached the fastest known speed. But, something unexpected happened. All other times when the fuel had run out on the X-15 the law of gravity always did it's work and the craft glided back down for a landing. But, this time the X-15 had escaped the law of gravity and had mistakenly achieved low earth orbit.
In it he says this time the X-15 had escaped the law of gravity which apart from being nnsense, even if you assumed that he mean Earth's Gravity, it still impossible. The Earth's gravity extends all the way to the edge of the universe, it's impssible to escape it. It is possible to get to a point where it's so small as to not matter, but it still exists. Also Orbit was far beyond the abilities of the X-15, especially with only a burn of 4 minutes.
The lowerest Orbit is 150km, or 93 miles. The Highest recorded X-15 flight was 67 miles, 26 miles short. The slowest Oribtal speed you can have is 4.588 miles per second. That's Mach 21. The X-15's top speed was Mach 6.72. However, lets take a look at the claim anyways.
The forumla to determine velocity is:
v=vo + at
of Velocity = Original Velocity plus Acceleration times Time. 851 We are wanting Acceleration so we can rearrange the formula to get:
(v-vo) / t = a
The X-15's original velocity is 500mph or about 851,613m/s Our target velocity is 7,184,000 m/s Our time is 4 minutes, or 240 seconds
so we have
a = (7,184,000 m/s - 851,613 m/s)/240s
a = 6,332,387m/s / 240s
a = 26,384.9 m/s²
g is 9.8 m/s²
so a = 2,692g
I don't think the pilot would have died of lack of oxygen, he would have died from being a pasty mess all over the back of pilot couch.
This is from a direct claim of this Rob Moore. Now if this one is provably wrong, why should we be believing the rest of it?
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Bob B.
Bob the Excel Guru?
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Post by Bob B. on Oct 2, 2005 12:14:18 GMT -4
There are many things wrong with this statement, but let me assure you it is IMPOSSIBLE for an X-15 to enter orbit. I don't fault you, lordoftherings, for not understanding rocket science, but for someone who does it is not hard to determine a rocket's performance and capabilities, and the X-15 is simply not capable of doing what the author describes. This Web page gives some good history and data about the X-15. A little ways down the page, just before the 'X-15A Chronology' begins, are some specifications. Note that the spacecraft delta v is given as 2,100 m/s. This is how much velocity change the X-15's engine can produce. As PhantomWolf pointed out, a much higher velocity is needed to achieve low earth orbit. At minimum orbital altitude a spacecraft must travel about 7,800 m/s to maintain orbit, and a launch vehicle must provide even more velocity than this because there are losses that occur in overcoming gravity and atmospheric drag. A launch vehicle genrally must provide about a delta v of about 9,000 m/s. So as you can see, the X-15 falls far short of this.
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Post by lordoftherings on Oct 2, 2005 14:39:49 GMT -4
In it he says this time the X-15 had escaped the law of gravity which apart from being nnsense, even if you assumed that he mean Earth's Gravity, it still impossible. The Earth's gravity extends all the way to the edge of the universe, it's impssible to escape it. It is possible to get to a point where it's so small as to not matter, but it still exists. Also Orbit was far beyond the abilities of the X-15, especially with only a burn of 4 minutes.
remember that Rob Moore is saying that there is theory and there is application which are both different.
About what you said first, I would appreciate it if you can put it in a more understandable way. thnx
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Post by lordoftherings on Oct 2, 2005 14:46:19 GMT -4
Let me give a try. you say : "Pointing out that von Braun had written a book on going to the moon via a rocketship in 1953 again would have totally destroyed his argument that von Braun wanted shuttles and the X-15 was the way to go."
He is saying exactly that the X15 was the way to go.
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Post by LunarOrbit on Oct 2, 2005 14:51:24 GMT -4
lordoftherings:
Please use the quote tags when responding to people. It's really hard to tell where quotes end and your own words begin.
The quote tags are:
[quote]Quoted text goes here...[/quote]
Which looks like this:
Alternatively you can make the text that you are quoting bold using these tags:
[b]Quoted text goes here...[/b]
Which looks like this: Quoted text goes here...
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Post by lordoftherings on Oct 2, 2005 15:01:36 GMT -4
Fine. I have a request. Plz how can I write my name like that: LordOfTheRings How can I insert images next to my name? thnx
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Post by LunarOrbit on Oct 2, 2005 15:16:36 GMT -4
You can modify your profile to accomplish both of those things. Change your display name in the fourth text box from the top of the page. To add an image (an avatar) either select one of the existing images from the drop-down box (9th option from the top of the page) or provide a URL to an image on another website in the next box.
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golfhobo
Venus
DAMN! That woulda gone in the hole IF....
Posts: 86
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Post by golfhobo on Oct 2, 2005 15:18:52 GMT -4
LordOfTheRings: I believe you might can change how your username appears by clicking "profile" at the top of this page. You can also add an avatar there.
As for the quotes, at the bottom of each thread, click reply. Then find the part you want to quote below the reply box, cut and paste it, then "highlight" it, and click the tag about 3rd from the right on the bottom row. When you hold the pointer over it, it will say, "insert quote." Don't use the one that is a right pointing arrow that says, "insert blockquote."
For more info on this, go to General Discussion, about 4 threads down and click "multiple quotes in posts."
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