Challenge to the Moon Man et al

[politik]

If you and the rest of the hoax believers are so convinced that the moon landings are faked, why are you still here? It should be obvious now that we will not be turned to your point of view (that being the view of ignorance). Why not take your fight to the next level? Take this to the people who conspired! Take it to the court, the FBI, to your local government representative. Surely there must be someone out there who isn't in on the conspiracy. And all those guys that are profiting from the sale of books and videos that promote the hoax, see if they can help you present your case. With their financial backing, you should be able to organize a big rally at the front of the White House!

It is pretty obvious that us sheep will never sway from our deep rooted beliefs and will not take any action against the conspirators.

[lordoftherings]

You know what politik? I was reading a book once "Kalila wa Dimna" that is spoken on the tongue of animals whereby the philosopher tells stories for getting the king more wise. He tells him a story that's moral is not to talk to his opponents so much because they will make him stressed. It is always true that speaking to opponents gets people stressed, so I guess I should stop debating and move to other forums TO SAVE YOU AND MYSELF, FRUSTRATIONS AND STRESS

[politik]

Save yourself. I'm not that stressed. I just don't understand why you come here to tell us that we are wrong. We'll never take you [not just you specifically LOTR] seriously as long as you don't take us seriously.

[lordoftherings]

I am debating with you and responding to you which indicates that I take you seriously. It doesn't mean that I should agree with everything you say. You [not just you] come here to tell the othr party they are wrong, but you don't want this same thing to happen to you. You are sressed about it, I guess, that is why you bring it up.
I just want to say that I deeply respect people who believe n their cause, doesn't matter if they are wrong, I just respect them.

[lonewulf]

Yes, but this isn't really a matter of *belief*. It's a matter of facts. There's far more evidence of there bieng a moon landing than there isn't. To say that the moon landings were faked under the heading of belief is like saying, "Oh, Hitler didn't REALLY slaughter millions of Jews; that was just a Jewish conspiracy". Then when people act angry at this accusation, his responce is, "Hey, it's just my BELIEF! You can't tread on my BELIEF!".

Seriously, it's ridiculous. I'm not angry at the disagreement, I'm angry at the total lack of logic, total lack of being able to see the facts, and going against hundreds of thousands of experts. The geologists that looked at the moon rocks -- you all make them look like idiots that don't understand their job. The engineers, the astronomers, the Russians, the Chinese, the Americans, and the Telemetry sent...

Why? Because you just "don't trust the government"? Well, I certainly don't trust the government fully either; but that doesn't suddenly mean that the moon landings being faked are possible.

I mean, jeez. We had the technology to build submarines with FIVE THOUSAND MILE RANGE missiles, 20 kiloton nuclear warheads! But somehow, we didn't have the technology to go to space?

Edit: I just thought of another thing. Do you realize how insulting your accusations are in the first place? Not just insulting to the heroes that went up into space, braved all odds, and came back, as national heroes...

Also, you have people like Moon Man suggesting we're all sheep that just listen to what the politicians and news tell us. It's incredibly insulting. Just having the ability to think for yourself automtically makes one a sheep? What about people that seem to buy whatever Conspiracy Websites tell them, without even knowing the source? That's not sheep-like?

[politik]

I usually only comment on things that I know to be fact. I've never really challenged anything you have posted because I'm not an expert on photography. But I do know some physics after having completed a course on Newtonian Mechanics just last term. It was a first year Physics course at the University I currently attend. I've also done logic courses as part of my computer science degree and can see many logical flaws in the reasoning of hoax believers. Moon Man is a clear case of ignorance to basic laws of physics (temperature, acceleration, chemistry)

I've seen reasonable explanations given to every single claim brought forth by hoax believers since I have been lurking this board. The usual response from a typical HB after reading the explanation is "I don't believe it". Well thats tough. If you don't want to believe what we say, don't ask questions. Take your argument to the next level. Bring it to those responsible.

Here in Canada, our Liberal minority government are being taken out of power because of a scandal that saw millions of public dollars funneled back into Liberal Party members. Apollo cost BILLIONS. Surely this would be a crime of all crimes if that money went into someones pocket by deception instead of hard work, legitimate hardware and a successful landing. ALL levels of government would then have to be in on the hoax for no one to have seriously investigated the possibility of this being a hoax, with new people being let in on the hoax to keep it from being investigated.

Since no one has successfully taken the task of bringing this issue to the Government, why not you? You will not change our minds with your claims unless you have some proof to back it up.

You might convince a jury tho. A class action lawsuit seems to be in order. What are you waiting for?

[lordoftherings]

all what you are saying that there is no logic and whatever is false. I was showing the logic on my thread. Besides, insulting American heroes. Ah, yes, you are allowed to assume they are heroes not liers but if someone puts his logic into it, he is a sheep-follower of HBers.

And lonewolf, research well the gas chambers, the Noremburg case ...about Hitler crimes. The exaggerations, the bogus numbers, oh I would love to start a thread on that book I read for Roger Garodi "The Legends that Founded the Israeli Policy". But I guess I'll be labelled as No-logic, No-Proof person, although the author says things that are straight forward, even to the layman. I'd better go to my exam. I shouldn't be wasting my time here.

[nomuse]

I'll say this again because it is worth repeating:

The hoax believers believe what they have been told.

The Apollo believers believe what can be verified.

On has nothing but intuition and innuendo; basing their beliefs on "I heard once" and "it seems unbelievable."

The other has mathematics and science and logic which all trace a clear, unbroken path from kitchen-table science experiments and backyard astronomy to the very surface of the Moon.

It is not a debate of warring opinions. It is a debate on warring modes of THOUGHT.

[lordoftherings]

I disagree with you, but will not carry on the discussion.
I really have in my the Holocaust debate, but what for? Somebody has his mind set that there is no hoax, every single thing is true, every other proof is not logic since most people believe it happened as told. Those who have this in mind bcz they were told that will of course , not be condemned or disturbed, only the opposers. No matter what logic they put into it, it will remain illogic to some. What if what was told is a possible scenario, but not what really happened? what if there are many unbelievable things that needs excavating? It wouldn't matter, any conspiracy theory against governments seem to be thought of in the same manner of Apollo. Stupid me, I thought communists are the only government worshipers.

[twinstead]

I think what is being 'worshiped' here is rational thought, proper scientific method, and preponderance of evidence, not any government.

You'd be surprised to find out how many folks here who believe the Apollo missions happened as advertised, and holocaust denial is simply agenda-driven revisionist history also don't trust the government and think GWB is a poor president.

[lonewulf]

Like me. I don't trust the government in all things, and I certainly don't put all my faith in the media. Plus, I loathe GWB as a president, but I don't consider him anything worse than a man that got into office with religious fundamentalism and rather backward thinking.

[lordoftherings]

fine, whatever.

[nomuse]

Oh, yes. I believe in "governments." Everything that comes out of Beijing, I trust completely. North Korea just wants to breed fuel? (Actually, I think this is largely true). The Japanese right-wing has no connection to the Yakuza? Sure. Payoffs to industry and sweetheart deals on behalf of lobbiest don't crowd the halls of Parliment? Of course.

This has dang all to do with governments.

Look...could you please tell me what this official government mouthpiece we're supposed to be getting not only our Apollo data, and our history, but our basic science from? Is it something like the Voice of America? Whatever this station is, I certainly haven't been tuning in.

[JayUtah]

I don't trust the government and I think GWB is the worst president since Jimmy Carter (or maybe including). I don't defend Apollo because I'm enamored with the government. I defend Apollo because the evidence is overwhelming that it was genuine, and I am qualified to judge that evidence.

I find it interesting that most hoax believers very soon get into the debate of trusting or distrusting government. And that, for them, is where it really lies. They believe in the hoax theory because it is an expression of distrust of government, and the distrust is actually the core belief. And so because their view of history on this point is determined by their hatred of government, it's only natural simply to reverse the line of reasoning when presuming their critics' motives: if one person disbelieves Apollo because he hates the government, then those who believe Apollo "must" do so because they love the government.

One can distrust a government without necessarily disbelieving a government. Implicit disbelieve is just as illogical as implicit belief. Even if you distrust someone you can still investigate and verify his claims and come to a conclusion that it's more likely he's telling the truth than lying.

[lordoftherings]

Untrue, Jay

What I think, probably didn't make it clear, is that trusting apollo is not the same as trusting the gov., but goes with it.
Same as fundamentalism is different than fanatacism, but goes with it. Not every fundamental religion devotee should be fanatic, but they can be strong catalysts. Maybe I am wrong.