The Smoking Gun of Bart's "Smoking Gun" Footage

[turbonium]

jasonthompson said:

Turbonium, I don't see what you're getting at here at all. The first Earth image from the video is the one from 10.32 GET. Of course it looks identical to the one Count Zero posted. It's the same piece of video. The one from 22 hours later is the second one you posted which is totally different.

Where are you getting this idea that the one on your video and the one Count Zero posted are filmed from different mission times?

There are two things from Count Zero's video grab of Earth that don't match up. The orientation of Earth in the first segment of the video appears like this...



..not the way Count posted it in the left-side image below.....



He made no mention of any alterations being done to the image still in his posts. He obviously rotated it, but failed to point out that fact.

Second, he dated the time below the video grab....

10:32 GET 00:04 GMT 20:04 EDT

...compared to the actual timestamp from the video segment, which is 198:01:15 to 198:01:30 GMT Year 1969...



So his time for the video grab (00:04 GMT, July 17) is not within the actual timestamped period of the video (01:15 to 01:30 GMT, July 17).
The time he indicates is over one hour before the actual start time of the filming.

I assumed that the video grab was unaltered and thus the Earth orientation meant it was taken from the second segment., which shows Earth in this orientation.

And I don't know why he also put in an incorrect time for it.

[Jason Thompson]

So, you saw an Earth that looked completely different from where you thought it was taken from but exactly the same as an image from earlier and you assumed that Count Zero was trying to mislead you? You placed more emphasis on the orientation than the cloud pattern? Good grief.

As to the time stamp, that's an interesting point. I've looked around and every source I can find says that first TV transmission came at 10.32GET to 10.48GET, which is 00.04GMT-00.18GMT. The only one that doesn't is the caption on that video.

Assuming that the caption was indeed made by NASA, I put that down to an error by whoever made the caption slide. Such things do happen.

[gwiz]

jasonthompson said:

Assuming that the caption was indeed made by NASA, I put that down to an error by whoever made the caption slide. Such things do happen.

Probably converted to British Summer Time instead of GMT.

[Jason Thompson]

Possibly, but it's still ten minutes or so out even if that were the case.

[Count Zero]

He complains that I rotating the image without telling him. This from the guy who still hasn't acknowleged that he changed comparison images between posts #19 and 21.

For those who can't keep up, the other two video images, the three Hasselblad images and the weather maps were all oriented north-side up. For ease of comparison, it made sense to rotate the first image to conform with the rest.

gwiz said:

jasonthompson said:

Assuming that the caption was indeed made by NASA, I put that down to an error by whoever made the caption slide. Such things do happen.

Probably converted to British Summer Time instead of GMT.

Either that or he converted from Eastern Standard Time to GMT, instead of Eastern Daylight Time to GMT. The US did not standardize Daylight Savings Time until just three years earlier.

The Network Controller's Mission Report (p. 83 & 84 of the document - 87 & 88 of the .pdf) lists the begin - end transmission times as:

17/0004Z - 17/0017Z
17/1956Z - 17/2050Z
17/2331Z - 18/0005Z

Now then, turbonium, are you going to tell us about your images of Earth recorded more than 10 hours before Apollo 11 left the pad?

[gezalenko]

And, Turbonium (or any other HBers) - what about addressing the main points of CZ's original post - i.e. that -
1) These pictures were broadcast live at the time
2) They were filmed a long way from earth - much further away than LEO
3) They appear to be consistent with recorded weather patterns at the time.

If all three points are true, then it seems clear that, at the very least, NASA's claim to have sent men around the moon is true (sure you might still argue that they didn't actually land on it), and that that part of the debate can be closed off for good, no ?

[gezalenko]

I imagine it would be possible to make Count Zero's excellent work even stronger by -
1) using the terminator to estimate the time of day, and also the time of year, which may or may not be consistent with the date and time stamp
2) checking whether the apparent position of the camera relative to the earth is consistent with where the moon should have been at the time, or consistent with the claimed route to the moon.
Sorry - I don't have the skills to do this myself.

[Tanalia]

Here is one web page that can display Day and Night Across the Earth for a specified date/time for comparison against the images.

[PhantomWolf]

Well since they would have been ahead of the where the moon was, it's hard to get an exact match, but it looks pretty darn close to me.

[Count Zero]

gezalenko said:

I imagine it would be possible to make Count Zero's excellent work even stronger by -
1) using the terminator to estimate the time of day, and also the time of year, which may or may not be consistent with the date and time stamp
2) checking whether the apparent position of the camera relative to the earth is consistent with where the moon should have been at the time, or consistent with the claimed route to the moon.
Sorry - I don't have the skills to do this myself.

This would be easy to do using this site. For best results, I need the latitude, longitude and altitude of the spacecraft at the specified times. Does anyone know where I can find this data?

[PeterB]

Turbonium

Are you claiming that rotation of the image is a serious anomaly?

[gezalenko]

Tanalia - thanks for the Day and Night Across the Earth link - that's a great link, although sadly it's provided by an arm of the US government, so some people might dismiss it out of hand ;D

But assuming we can rely on it . . . .
I used it to produce the view on 17th July 1969, at 23:31 UT.

Here's the whole Earth


We can't be absolutely certain, but the position of the terminator certainly appears to be consistent with the photograph - i.e. all of the continental USA and most of the Pacific are in sunlight, South America is in darkness.

Here's the view from the Moon


Note that this is not exactly the same as the photo, but I'm guessing that this is because the route taken to the moon diverged somewhat from a straight line - I'm sure this is checkable.

This doesn't actually prove that NASA went to the Moon - after all, if NASA had faked it, they would presumably have got this detail right, you'd think.
But it is yet another demonstration of the massive internal consistency of NASA's claims.

Turbonium - you seem to have gone quiet on this one. If you're still thinking about this, can you let us know ? Otherwise, you must either accept Count Zero's analysis and therefore accept that NASA sent men a long way towards the Moon, OR you must dispute some specific part of his analysis - in which case, which part ?

[Nowhere Man]

Note that this is not exactly the same as the photo, but I'm guessing that this is because the route taken to the moon diverged somewhat from a straight line - I'm sure this is checkable.

Also, the space craft was traveling to where the moon would be when they got there -- leading the target, in a big way. So the moon was indeed not in a straight line with Apollo and the Earth.

Fred

[PhantomWolf]

I grabbed one based on the link Count posted (a non-government link) and used the the assumption that they flew a basically straight line from the Earth to where the moon would be at intercept (again not true, it was a conical cuve resembling a sort of elongated "S".) The result is extremely close to the photo. Not exact, but that is due to the assumptions on positioning. You can tell that the real position would have been to the west of what I have. I was going to post it last night but got distracted by Morrowind. Might try tonight.

[Tanalia]

If you need a non-US site, Fourmilab Switzerland has, amongst other stuff, a Earth and Moon Viewer page, which references their own map of the Earth, which will generate images of the same sort as the other link I gave.