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Post by JayUtah on Jun 6, 2007 19:49:10 GMT -4
The Soviet government acknowledged the success of Apollo 11. Much later (i.e., recently) we learned that the Soviets were able to eavesdrop on Apollo 11 television quite effectively. I have anecdotal, unconfirmed testimony that Soviet agents had infiltrated Apollo -- would be fun to confirm that. Of course all that didn't stop the Soviets from calling Armstrong the "czar" of the spacecraft, but let them have a little fun.
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Post by Ginnie on Jun 6, 2007 20:00:44 GMT -4
I'm just wondering...how many countries could track Apollo and tell if they landed on the moon. I was reading the front page of the Toronto Daily Star dated July 21, 1969 (the headline says MAN WALKS ON MOON), but there is a smaller article titled :
RUSSIAN SHIP ON MOON BRITISH TRACKERS SAY. The unmanned Russian spacecraft Luna 15 landed today on the moon's Sea of Crises 500 miles from the Apollo 11 lunar module and its two astronauts, Jodrell Bank observatory reported. A spokesman of the station said Jodrell Bank's giant dish antenna detected a rocket blast that evidently was intended to drop the craft out of orbit toward the lunar surface. The observatory has tracked the Luna 15 probe closely since it was launched July 13, just three days before the Apollo 11 blastoff. Space scientist SIr Bernard Lovell, director of the observatory, was asked if it was a hard or a soft landing. He said, "We shall have to wait and see if we get more signals to see if it lifts off again".
So I'm assuming that if they can track Luna 15, then Apollo was also. I guess my whole point is that how can anyone doubt the moon landings at all when you have independent verification by other countries? Do HBers think that the conspiracy involved multiple nations?
By the way, Sacha Baron Cohen is rumoured to be up for the Freddie Mercury role in a film about the late singers life!
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Post by JayUtah on Jun 6, 2007 20:03:18 GMT -4
Few could track the spacecraft. The Soviets could track it sporadically; their technology had some line-of-sight limitations. But many could listen in on the transmissions. That's not necessarily equivalent to tracking it, except that the antennas needed to listen to the voice component of the Unified S-band signal were directional.
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Post by Ginnie on Jun 6, 2007 20:14:29 GMT -4
Could they tell the approximate location of the source of the transmission? e.g. 240,000 miles away?
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Post by JayUtah on Jun 6, 2007 20:26:32 GMT -4
Well, yes and no.
You have to aim the dish pretty precisely in order to get the signal -- typically within a fraction of a degree. And if that object is moving such that you have to keep adjusting the antenna direction, you can compute the object's orbit based on a series of such moves. Orbital mechanics gives you that ability.
If you know the frequency on which the object is supposed to transmit, and you observe its radio frequency to differ by some amount due to Doppler shift, you can compute angle-and-speed measurements again to derive the orbit. If you know the orbit the object is following, and its coordinates in the sky, you can determine where that object is along its orbit and from that derive its distance.
If the object is landed on the Moon, the signal will appear to come from the Moon.
So there's no dial on your radio that tells you how far away the source is, you can use some math and some basic observational skills to figure it out, and if you've been accurate in your measurements then the location will be deterministically and accurately computable.
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Post by Ginnie on Jun 6, 2007 20:57:21 GMT -4
Thanks Jay! I've been learning a lot here. I've also found myself re-reading some of my home library's volumes. Especially the Petersons Man in Space series (1974 I think). It's amazing how well the NASA program is documented by publications as it was happening..
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Post by LunarOrbit on Jun 6, 2007 22:36:01 GMT -4
If the Soviets were smart they would have infiltrated Goldstone and sabotaged the dish to prevent communications at an important time (like during Armstrong's first steps). Maybe nothing serious enough to risk the lives of the astronauts, just to ensure there wasn't a record of such an important event.
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Post by gwiz on Jun 7, 2007 4:45:21 GMT -4
Here's the link to the Russian account of how they tracked Apollo, from the August 2005 issue of Novosti Kosmonautiki:www.novosti-kosmonavtiki.ru/content/numbers/271/03.shtmlIf you don't understand Russian, run it through a translation program. If you google around for Parkes or Honeysuckle Creek, you can find Australian accounts too. There's also Sven Grahn's account of how, as a radio ham, he picked up Apollo 17 from the moon.
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Post by Kiwi on Jun 7, 2007 5:57:54 GMT -4
My understanding is that the Soviet media basically said, "Congratulations, US; you did it." They certainly did: The West Australian, Wednesday 23 July 1969, page 8 Congratulations from Kosygin Moscow, Tuesday Soviet Prime Minister Alexei Kosygin sent congratulations to the Apollo 11 astronauts and President Nixon yesterday through former vice-president Humphrey, who is visiting Moscow. Mr Humphrey was called to Mr Kosygin's office in the Kremlin after the moon walk. Mr Humphrey quoted Mr Kosygin as saying: "I want you to tell the President and the American people that the Soviet Union desires to work with the U.S. in the cause of peace." Prompt reports The Russian radio reported the landing of the astronauts within ten minutes of touch-down and announced the ascent from the moon even more promptly. Moscow television showed the moon walk yesterday. A first screening was edited to blank out the American commentary and the voices of the astronauts. It ended just before the astronauts raised the U.S. flag on the moon's surface. About two hours later, in another TV broadcast, the sound and the flag raising had been restored. In Peking, the official newspapers, TV and radio totally ignored Apollo 11, but some Chinese people may have heard of the landing by courtesy of Radio Moscow. A half-hour Chinese-language news broadcast from Moscow gave 30 seconds to the landing. In London, a man who almost arranged the death of Saturn rocket designer Wernher von Braun sent him a cable of congratulations — and relief. Politician Duncan Sandys, who planned a raid designed to kill Nazi Germany's major rocket scientists at Peenemunde (one of them Dr von Braun), said: "I am thankful that your illustrious career was not cut short in the bombing raid at Peenemunde 26 years ago."
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Post by Ginnie on Jun 7, 2007 20:41:42 GMT -4
Ahhh, so everybody knows that Apollo landed on the moon then. Its hard to understand why a few people are pretending that it didn't happen...LOL
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Post by PhantomWolf on Jun 10, 2007 20:35:52 GMT -4
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Post by Ginnie on Jun 11, 2007 23:20:04 GMT -4
That's a great link. Leaves no doubt in my mind. Oh, wait a minute, I thought the Russians were in on the hoax too! LOL
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Post by PeterB on Jun 12, 2007 22:05:31 GMT -4
If you google around for Parkes or Honeysuckle Creek, you can find Australian accounts too. Last week I went to a talk by Mike Dinn and John Saxon, two of the senior people at Honeysuckle Creek. They were talking to a group of (mostly retired) computer users about how Honeysuckle worked, and their talk included a lot of charts of the data flow, using a whole lot of terminology that I didn't understand (I can use a computer like I can use a car, but I'm not much good with the innards of either). Anyway, John and Mike spent only 30 seconds on the hoax. They pointed out that they ran the tracking station; they knew exactly where the dish was pointed; they knew the signals they were receiving were coming from the Moon; and they knew the signals from the Command Module displayed a Doppler Effect exactly consistent with a spacecraft orbiting the Moon. In other words, they knew they weren't being fooled. The only alternative was that they, along with all the staff at Goldstone and Madrid, were in on the Hoax, yet no one had come forward in over 30 years. It's an argument from personal incredulity, to be sure, but I think it's a fairly strong one when looked at from a non-technical point of view.
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Post by graham2001 on Jun 13, 2007 22:47:26 GMT -4
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Post by Ginnie on Jun 13, 2007 23:30:16 GMT -4
Then how in the heck can HBers doubt the moon landings at all? I just don't get it. They don't do any research at all and ignore evidence they don't like - wow- everything I'm learning lately about the Space Program just fills in the holes and starts linking all the pieces of info together. I don't need to be convinced as to the reality of Apollo at all, but boy is it fun finding out how it was done!
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