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Post by Grand Lunar on Nov 9, 2007 8:15:40 GMT -4
Does anyone here own John H. Mauldin's books?
The latest gem I see is the HBs still sticking to the belief that Mauldin claims that thick lead shielding is require for a trip to the moon. Never mind the fact that machines don't need this protection. HBs don't understand the effects of radiation on electronics, nor do they care.
I've seen the books for sale on Amazon.com. The price is a bit steep for my tastes and means.
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Mauldin
Nov 9, 2007 11:27:25 GMT -4
Post by JayUtah on Nov 9, 2007 11:27:25 GMT -4
I own Mauldin's Prospects for Interstellar Travel, which is the work typically cited. Mauldin does not at all say that thick shielding is required to go to the Moon. In fact, Mauldin does not discuss cislunar space travel except where briefly necessary to contrast it to interstellar travel, which is the subject of the book.
The context of the shielding discussion is a generation ship: an interstellar vehicle that would reach approximately 0.3c (one-third the speed of light) and carry explorers who would extend through many generational cycles to reach their destination; so the explorers who arrive at the destination might be the great-grandchildren of those who departed.
Because people would live their entire lives on this ship, the radiation levels must be attenuated to normal background levels for Earth, or lower. That requires greater shielding than today's astronauts who work only a couple dozen days in space during their careers.
The sources of radiation are obviously the cosmic background radiation that is significantly stronger outside the heliopause, and the induced radiation from charged particles as the ship moves at relativistic speeds. A ship slamming into a stationary particle at 0.3c produces the same radiation absorption effect as a 0.3c particle slamming into a stationary object. Neither of these effects is a concern for cislunar operations.
In one chapter Mauldin computes the necessary shield thickness using water as the shield material. This is the 2-meter figure. In a later chapter he discusses other possible shield materials (supposedly of comparable thickness) such as metal and rock, and discusses the engineering tradeoffs for each.
The conspiracy theorists cite Mauldin largely because Ralph Rene does, and Rene is not competent to know the difference between solar system space travel and interstellar space travel. He simply found a book on space travel written by a physicist, and figured that everything in it could be mindlessly applied to Apollo missions.
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Mauldin
Nov 9, 2007 19:58:36 GMT -4
Post by Grand Lunar on Nov 9, 2007 19:58:36 GMT -4
So basically, when the HBs claim that Mauldin was talking about travel in cislunar space, they are lying? Figures.
Incidently Jay, how does Mauldin's book stand up to the test of time? Would you recommend it today? Does it have good info that still is relevent, perhaps even new to a fan of space exploration that hasn't read his book yet?
I ask in case when I do get more income, when I'll consider his book.
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Mauldin
Nov 9, 2007 20:07:05 GMT -4
Post by JayUtah on Nov 9, 2007 20:07:05 GMT -4
So basically, when the HBs claim that Mauldin was talking about travel in cislunar space, they are lying?
Yes.
Ask them how many of them have actually, personally read Mauldin's books.
Incidently Jay, how does Mauldin's book stand up to the test of time? Would you recommend it today? Does it have good info that still is relevent, perhaps even new to a fan of space exploration that hasn't read his book yet?
Well the test of time hasn't really been applied. Mauldin wrote in the 1980s talking about possible technology that's still very much in the future for us. But his speculation 20 years ago about what we'd be doing 100 years from then is still what we're talking about doing 80 years from now. Some of his material is quaint, but they're still very much useful books.
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Mauldin
Nov 9, 2007 20:12:25 GMT -4
Post by Grand Lunar on Nov 9, 2007 20:12:25 GMT -4
Thanks again, Jay!
The infamous Jarrah claims to be using Mauldin's book as a source. He provides the usual badmouthing, particularly of you. Surprising, huh?
Anyway, I think I could stop at a library, and see if Mauldin's book is there. If not, it'd be something to look forward to for the holidays. If not later!
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Mauldin
Nov 9, 2007 21:57:26 GMT -4
Post by svector on Nov 9, 2007 21:57:26 GMT -4
The infamous Jarrah claims to be using Mauldin's book as a source. More correctly, he's abusing it as a source. The section he's fond of quoting is where Mauldin apparently makes a comment about thicker shielding being needed over a few hours at earth distance from the sun. What he curiously always fails to mention is that Mauldin was referring to protection from a major solar event -- something that never happened during any Apollo mission. When asked to produce evidence for an event which would've made Mauldin's statement relevant to an Apollo flight, he brings up some insignificant activity that supposedly happened in April 1972, during Apollo 16. When pressed to produce numbers for this event, he quietly returns to his hole. Maybe Jay will put you on his gift list???
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Mauldin
Nov 9, 2007 22:18:16 GMT -4
Post by JayUtah on Nov 9, 2007 22:18:16 GMT -4
I'm sure Mauldin discusses solar events somewhere and the shielding that would be required. For very short missions it's not an issue; the probability of a major flare is very low. For longer missions avoidance is not a solution and shielding must be provided -- but certainly not the 2 meters Mauldin computes for a lifetime spent beyond the heliopause.
You simply can't hide solar events. We've been recording them worldwide since Victorian times. It was known at the time that a small-scale solar event occurred during Apollo 16, but none of the dozens upon dozens of observatories worldwide that detected and quantified it seems to be falling all over themselves to corroborate the hoax theories. The event was discussed in all the post-mission studies.
Talk about desperate!
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Mauldin
Nov 9, 2007 22:46:53 GMT -4
Post by Ginnie on Nov 9, 2007 22:46:53 GMT -4
Just barely related, but I found this site: adsabs.harvard.edu/where the text can be found for many Astronomy and Astrophysics and Physics works. Might be a handy research tool. You can read such works as: Cambridge University Press Handbook of Space Astronomy and Astrophysics ads.harvard.edu/books/hsaa/toc.htmlThe Fundamentals of Stellar Astrophysics, by George W. Collins, II ads.harvard.edu/books/1989fsa..book/Images of the solar upper atmosphere from SUMER on SOHO by Uri Feldman, Ingolf E. Dammasch, Klaus Wilhelm, Philippe Lemaire, Donald M. Hassler; Bruce Battrick, editor ads.harvard.edu/books/2003isua.book/or how about this one: APOLLO 17 LANDING SITE: EVALUATING A JOINT UVVIS-NIR FEO ALGORITHM THAT NULLIFIES TOPOGRAPHIC SHADING EFFECTS ON LUNAR REFLECTANCE SPECTRA. www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2007/pdf/1967.pdfEDIT: You can also add a search toolbar to your browser! Also check out onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/book/search?title=apollo&tmode=wordsThese are just a listing of books with 'apollo' in the title. For example, here is 'Apollo by the Numbers': history.nasa.gov/SP-4029/SP-4029.htmor this one: Where No Man Has Gone Before: A History of Apollo Lunar Exploration Missions By William David Compton www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/SP-4214/cover.htmlPublic domain motion pictures can be downloaded or viewed here: www.archive.org/search.php?query=apollo%20AND%20mediatype%3AmoviesThis contains such films as 'The Eagle Has Landed', 'Apollo Beyond', 'Nothing So Hidden' - actually probably all the movies in the DVD set I just bought from Amazon! I forgot about this site, you can download the audio to just about every Grateful Dead concert from this site. one more: Stages to Saturn : a technological history of the Apollo/Saturn launch vehicles (1996) www.archive.org/details/stagestosaturnte00bilsrich
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Mauldin
Nov 9, 2007 22:56:12 GMT -4
Post by JayUtah on Nov 9, 2007 22:56:12 GMT -4
Actually that's very helpful.
Mauldin's Prospects is meant for people who have a basic understanding of astrophysics, not for the layman. Jarrah doesn't have a basic understanding of astrophysics. Neither does Ralph Rene. Therefore they both delve into an advanced book that's over their heads, trying to fit it to their wrongly intuitive beliefs about the nature of the universe.
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Mauldin
Nov 10, 2007 15:23:57 GMT -4
Post by Grand Lunar on Nov 10, 2007 15:23:57 GMT -4
Actually that's very helpful. Mauldin's Prospects is meant for people who have a basic understanding of astrophysics, not for the layman. Jarrah doesn't have a basic understanding of astrophysics. Neither does Ralph Rene. Therefore they both delve into an advanced book that's over their heads, trying to fit it to their wrongly intuitive beliefs about the nature of the universe. Seems a comparison would be that it's like a student of grade school (1-5) maths trying to understand calculus, yes? Or like a kid that knows Legos trying to figure out a service manual for a 2006 six cylinder outboard engine with EFI.
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Mauldin
Nov 10, 2007 16:19:50 GMT -4
Post by Ginnie on Nov 10, 2007 16:19:50 GMT -4
Or like a kid that knows Legos trying to figure out a service manual for a 2006 six cylinder outboard engine with EFI. \ I wouldn't put it past BertL to figure such a thing out! ;D
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Mauldin
Nov 10, 2007 19:00:45 GMT -4
Post by BertL on Nov 10, 2007 19:00:45 GMT -4
Or like a kid that knows Legos trying to figure out a service manual for a 2006 six cylinder outboard engine with EFI. You'd be surprised how much you learn from LEGO. You'd be surprised how little, as well.
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Mauldin
Nov 11, 2007 16:39:48 GMT -4
Post by Grand Lunar on Nov 11, 2007 16:39:48 GMT -4
Or like a kid that knows Legos trying to figure out a service manual for a 2006 six cylinder outboard engine with EFI. You'd be surprised how much you learn from LEGO. You'd be surprised how little, as well. I was told that if you are good at Legos, you can put together your own computer. Note that I said the service manual now, NOT the engine itself!
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