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Post by JayUtah on Jul 17, 2005 10:16:28 GMT -4
I think you do need to be an expert. Bullets do things that laymen don't intuitively understand.
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Post by turbonium on Jul 17, 2005 20:02:46 GMT -4
I think you do need to be an expert. Bullets do things that laymen don't intuitively understand. Well, I know it and I'm not an expert. I've never seen any bullet I've fired off end up with a pristine nose and jacket. I have yet to see a bullet after impact with an unscathed nose and main body, with just a slightly flattened base. But my saying you don't need to be an expert is not even the point. These experts also agree with that - if any were to disagree, they could not duplicate the result. There has never been anyone to duplicate the result with a pristine nose and main jacket.
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Post by JayUtah on Jul 17, 2005 21:18:38 GMT -4
We can't exactly duplicate plane crashes. Does that mean no one understands what happens in a crash?
Bullets tumble after an encounter with a non-stopping substance. They also slow down. If a slowed-down bullet that is tumbling strikes a hard enough surface, it will deform just as shown. Just because the experts can't duplicate it doesn't mean they don't understand how it got like that. A layman might think duplication is necessary. An expert knows he doesn't have to duplicate the results in order to understand the process.
You're completely ignoring the entire science of failure analysis.
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Post by Joe Durnavich on Jul 17, 2005 21:43:41 GMT -4
Jay is right. The key to having an MC bullet emerge in relatively good shape after shattering bone is to slow it down first. Both Lattimer and Fackler's experimental recreations confirmed this. Here is an MC bullet that Martin Fackler shot through a wrist bone at a reduced speed of 1100 fps (that's enough to pulverize the wrist bone): Fackler bulletJohn Lattimer performed a lot of recreations. Here is part of an article he had published and one of the photos from it: Lattimer bulletLattimer article excerpts
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Post by PeterB on Jul 17, 2005 21:45:34 GMT -4
Turbonium
Remember that bullets spin, and once they strike a denser medium, they tumble. As a result of striking Kennedy, the bullet started to tumble, and by the time it struck Connally, it was travelling side-on. Therefore, when it hit bone in Connally, it was flattened along its length, not on the tip. I think that by the time it hit Connally's leg, it was facing backwards. This is supported by the large wounds on Connally's torso, consistent with the bullet entering and exiting side-on.
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Post by snakeriverrufus on Jul 20, 2005 22:38:55 GMT -4
That .264" 160 gr bullet should have had enough sectional density to keep it from tumbling. At a guess I'd say the bullet's jacket was filled unevenly. W.D.M. Bell shot over 1000 elephants at the turn of the last century with a 6.5 x 54 mannlicher-schoener. Head shots, the bullets nearly always exited.
edited for typo/srr
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Post by turbonium on Jul 21, 2005 3:38:48 GMT -4
Turbonium Remember that bullets spin, and once they strike a denser medium, they tumble. As a result of striking Kennedy, the bullet started to tumble, and by the time it struck Connally, it was travelling side-on. Therefore, when it hit bone in Connally, it was flattened along its length, not on the tip. I think that by the time it hit Connally's leg, it was facing backwards. This is supported by the large wounds on Connally's torso, consistent with the bullet entering and exiting side-on. peter, the idea that the bullet entering Connally's back was sideways is a proven lie. Dr. John Lattimer fabricated that story when he said that the entry hole was 3cm across, the length of the bullet. It was in fact 1.5cm across, the size from a slight downward trajectory but nose forward bullet impact. Lattimer used the 3cm number that was the dimension resulting from the surgically enlarged hole! This lie was perpetuated by Dale Myers, Gus Russo,, Gerald Posner, and Dr. Michael Baden. See this link which has the source links from the WC report with the testimony of Dr. Shaw. history-matters.com/essays/jfkmed/BigLieSmallWound/BigLieSmallWound.htm#Exhibit_B
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Post by turbonium on Jul 21, 2005 3:40:49 GMT -4
Jay is right. The key to having an MC bullet emerge in relatively good shape after shattering bone is to slow it down first. Both Lattimer and Fackler's experimental recreations confirmed this. Here is an MC bullet that Martin Fackler shot through a wrist bone at a reduced speed of 1100 fps (that's enough to pulverize the wrist bone): Fackler bulletJohn Lattimer performed a lot of recreations. Here is part of an article he had published and one of the photos from it: Lattimer bulletLattimer article excerptsJoe, as I explained above, Lattimer is lying about the 3cm hole in Connally's back. He is not a credible source whatsoever.
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Post by Joe Durnavich on Jul 21, 2005 8:59:19 GMT -4
Turbonium, Lattimer got the 3 cm figure from the surgeon's operative report. Much later on, Dr. Shaw revised the figure to 1.5 cm. The 3 cm figure you see in Lattimer's article I reference refer to the exit hole IN FRONT of the jacket.
A 0.65 cm bullet will cause a 1.5 cm hole if the bullet is yawing upon entry around 60 degrees. When a rifle bullet like the MC passes through soft tissue such as a neck, it wobbles or yaws back and forth until the oscillations damp out. When it strikes another object, it will enter at whatever yaw angle it happens to be in at the moment of entry.
The elongated wound (as well as in the clothing) are evidence that the bullet was yawing upon entry. Your attempts to poison the well have no merit in this matter.
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Post by turbonium on Jul 25, 2005 4:00:55 GMT -4
Turbonium, Lattimer got the 3 cm figure from the surgeon's operative report. Much later on, Dr. Shaw revised the figure to 1.5 cm. The 3 cm figure you see in Lattimer's article I reference refer to the exit hole IN FRONT of the jacket. A 0.65 cm bullet will cause a 1.5 cm hole if the bullet is yawing upon entry around 60 degrees. When a rifle bullet like the MC passes through soft tissue such as a neck, it wobbles or yaws back and forth until the oscillations damp out. When it strikes another object, it will enter at whatever yaw angle it happens to be in at the moment of entry. The elongated wound (as well as in the clothing) are evidence that the bullet was yawing upon entry. Your attempts to poison the well have no merit in this matter. OK - I see that Lattimer only mentions the bullet was sideways upon entry of Connally's back. But then, the 3 cm exit hole Lattimer mentions was actually 5 cm in the operative report. So Lattimer is not going from that report in the link you provided. Shaw testified in the WC in March that the 3 cm entry hole in Connally's back was the size after surgical enlargement, and it was originally 1.5 cm. That is only four months after the assassination, not really much later on. The exit hole was 3 cm, according to Shaw, and 5 cm after surgical enlargement. Lattimer would have certainly known the figures as detailed by Shaw in his testiomony to the WC, but he seems to have overlooked them, except in the case that you linked where he says the exit hole was 3 cm. I'm not poisoning the well, Joe. Maybe Lattimer is though.
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Post by Ranb on Aug 18, 2005 12:06:24 GMT -4
I think you do need to be an expert. Bullets do things that laymen don't intuitively understand. Well, I know it and I'm not an expert. I've never seen any bullet I've fired off end up with a pristine nose and jacket. I have yet to see a bullet after impact with an unscathed nose and main body, with just a slightly flattened base. But my saying you don't need to be an expert is not even the point. These experts also agree with that - if any were to disagree, they could not duplicate the result. There has never been anyone to duplicate the result with a pristine nose and main jacket. So what bullets have you fired and recovered? I load and shoot cast round nose and flat tip bullets. I also load and shoot copper jacketed lead bullets of the hollow point, flat nose, round nose and spitzer type. I have on occasion shot and recovered solid brass, steel core and armor piercing projectiles. Most bullets will retain a good shape if shot into a wet medium, except for hollow points, which are make to expand when fluid fills the nose cavity. All bullets even armor piercing and solid brass will end up with deform noses when hitting a hard object. Armor piercing bullets are usually a hardened penetrator enclosed in a copper alloy which deforms or strips away completely when entering the target. A bullet which enters a soft target, yaws, then hits a hard object may be greatly deformed along the side and back with little damage to the nose. You will find a great deal of variation of the condition of spent bullets when examining the backstop of a rifle range or the target set up on it. A round nose jacketed bullet such as the one used by Oswald would hold up well until it hit bone. Then it is bound to be deformed a little or a lot.. As an experienced recreational shooter, it is my opinion that the shot was not very difficult. JFK's limo was slowly moving at only a slight angle to the shooter after it passed the tree. Given the size of the target and range involved, the accuracy required was only about 7 minutes of angle. Leading the target by about 3 inches, was sufficient to get a center hit on the head. If Oswald was aiming for the head each time, he only got 1 out of 3 on target. I think Oswald was the only one shooting that day. As far as a conspiracy goes, I feel it was a one man job, but others could have been involved. Ranb
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Post by bazbear on Aug 18, 2005 14:58:46 GMT -4
I think you do need to be an expert. Bullets do things that laymen don't intuitively understand. Well, I know it and I'm not an expert. I've never seen any bullet I've fired off end up with a pristine nose and jacket. I have yet to see a bullet after impact with an unscathed nose and main body, with just a slightly flattened base. I'm sorry, neither the jacket nor the nose of CE 399 looks pristine or unscathed to me. And you'd have to be blind to call the base of this slug pristine. If it was so difficult to duplicate, how was it originally created by the theoretical conspirators? And if it was indeed fabricated evidence, please explain the logic of using that particular bullet, and not a more mangled one?
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Post by Joe Durnavich on Aug 18, 2005 15:42:22 GMT -4
Note that those gouges in the nose of the bullet are where samples were taken by the FBI and/or the HSCA.
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Post by turbonium on Aug 19, 2005 1:27:55 GMT -4
Well, I know it and I'm not an expert. I've never seen any bullet I've fired off end up with a pristine nose and jacket. I have yet to see a bullet after impact with an unscathed nose and main body, with just a slightly flattened base. But my saying you don't need to be an expert is not even the point. These experts also agree with that - if any were to disagree, they could not duplicate the result. There has never been anyone to duplicate the result with a pristine nose and main jacket. So what bullets have you fired and recovered? I load and shoot cast round nose and flat tip bullets. I also load and shoot copper jacketed lead bullets of the hollow point, flat nose, round nose and spitzer type. I have on occasion shot and recovered solid brass, steel core and armor piercing projectiles. Most bullets will retain a good shape if shot into a wet medium, except for hollow points, which are make to expand when fluid fills the nose cavity. All bullets even armor piercing and solid brass will end up with deform noses when hitting a hard object. Armor piercing bullets are usually a hardened penetrator enclosed in a copper alloy which deforms or strips away completely when entering the target. A bullet which enters a soft target, yaws, then hits a hard object may be greatly deformed along the side and back with little damage to the nose. You will find a great deal of variation of the condition of spent bullets when examining the backstop of a rifle range or the target set up on it. A round nose jacketed bullet such as the one used by Oswald would hold up well until it hit bone. Then it is bound to be deformed a little or a lot.. As an experienced recreational shooter, it is my opinion that the shot was not very difficult. JFK's limo was slowly moving at only a slight angle to the shooter after it passed the tree. Given the size of the target and range involved, the accuracy required was only about 7 minutes of angle. Leading the target by about 3 inches, was sufficient to get a center hit on the head. If Oswald was aiming for the head each time, he only got 1 out of 3 on target. I think Oswald was the only one shooting that day. As far as a conspiracy goes, I feel it was a one man job, but others could have been involved. Ranb I've recovered jacketed flat point, round nose and hollow point rounds that I've load and shot., and on occasion lead solid cast round nose bullets. Medium recovered from game and stationary targets, and ranging from soft to hard material targets. I agree with your assessment that little nose damage is possible hitting soft tissue unless bone was hit. But the "magic bullet" theory as the WC and others propose is simply not possible. The downward trajectory, and the actual back entry wound being below the claimed throat exit wound, make the WC and "new" magic bullet theories impossible. These theories rely on no bone being hit by the bullet as it travelled through the body of JFK . The below still is from Mcadams site (Myers simulation) purporting a straight path trajectory through JFK to Connally. There are several problems with this simulated trajectory. It relies on the "bunched jacket and shirt" theory, to make the holes in JFK's clothing not contradict the entry wound location in JFK's back. The fact that the bullet is on a downward trajectory would have the entry wound at least slightly higher than the throat exit wound, as this still shows, but that is not supported by any evidence. The still also places JFK's throat area in alignment with the right side of Connally's back. The photographs and video show this is not how they were seated at the time. Look at the crosshairs in the below simulation still (again from Mcadams/Myers) - even here it shows a target area in the back, below anywhere near being able to exit at JFK's throat. The seating of Connally is also too far to the left of JFK, as frame 225 of the Zapruder film shows the actual alignment. From an angle behind and to the right of the limo, the straight path from the TSB would take the bullet to the left side of Connally's back, not the right side which was the actual wound area. That is why the simulation still had to place Connally as being seated well to the left of JFK But JFK, Connally and the Secret Service agent in the front seat are quite nicely aligned relative to each other and to the right side of the limo in frame 225. Also, the bullet supposedly shattered bone twice in two separate wounds on Connally - shattering his rib and then his wrist. Where would the bullet have impacted with bone two times to end up as it did in Exhibit CE399?
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Post by LunarOrbit on Aug 19, 2005 1:49:51 GMT -4
Is Connally sitting on the Presidents lap in the middle picture?
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