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Post by wdmundt on Apr 28, 2008 17:33:08 GMT -4
I can't fathom why you think it is an actual issue.
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Jason
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Post by Jason on Apr 28, 2008 17:52:15 GMT -4
It's not a serious issue that disqualifies the man from being president, but it might be a sign of his general character, especially when viewed with other signs such as his close association with a bigoted anti-american pastor and his wife's stated lack of pride in the nation.
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Post by wdmundt on Apr 28, 2008 18:17:10 GMT -4
You're just putting a ridiculous spin on it. He said he thought politicians wearing flag pins was an empty sign of patriotism.
Obama: "You know, the truth is that right after 9/11, I had a pin. Shortly after 9/11, particularly because as we're talking about the Iraq War, that became a substitute for I think true patriotism, which is speaking out on issues that are of importance to our national security, I decided I won't wear that pin on my chest."
One can logically assume that a flag pin offered by a disabled veteran would not be empty of meaning and would not be a substitute for true patriotism.
I see this issue as a sign of something in the character of those who would twist this event into some kind of character issue, not as a sign of something wrong in Obama's character.
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Jason
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Post by Jason on Apr 28, 2008 18:20:48 GMT -4
You're just putting a ridiculous spin on it. He said he thought politicians wearing flag pins was an empty sign of patriotism. And I don't believe him, mostly because of the other signs of how his closest associates seem to view the country.
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Post by wdmundt on Apr 28, 2008 18:39:01 GMT -4
While completely ignoring how the "closest associates" of John McCain say the same types of crazy things. Look into what Pastor Hagee has said about God destroying New Orleans because it was sinful. And yes, McCain "courted" Hagee's support.
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Jason
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Post by Jason on Apr 28, 2008 18:49:53 GMT -4
Like I said earlier, did John McCain go to Pastor Hagee's church for twenty years, have him marry his wife, have him baptize his children, and put him on his campaign staff as a spiritual advisor?
If not then he's not quite as close an associate as Obama and his bigoted spiritual advisor, is he?
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Post by wdmundt on Apr 28, 2008 19:02:18 GMT -4
Well, if you ask me, all "spiritual advisors" are snake oil salesmen. And in the wider context of his speech (rather than the standard 4 second sound bite) I don't think what Wright said was really all that out of line. He has said some crazy things, no doubt -- but Obama is not Wright and Wright is not Obama. The question is -- what does Obama stand for and what does he say, not what does Wright say.
I don't know if a couple of white guys can really understand the dynamics of black anger.
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Post by wdmundt on Apr 28, 2008 19:10:57 GMT -4
Don't get me wrong, I like McCain. I'm not going to vote for him, but I won't be sick to my stomach if he wins the election. I don't think Hagee is McCain anymore than I think Wright is Obama.
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Post by PhantomWolf on Apr 28, 2008 19:50:01 GMT -4
How about looking at policy rather than whether he wears a pin or not? From the point of view of a member of this board and a keen space fan, I have to point out that Obama is a bad candidate for what we want. He has stated that he wants to remove NASA's budget for the new moon landings to give it to health. Here I have to say "WTF?" According to the 2009 US Government Budget Health will get 40x NASA's budget, a wooping $736,872,000,000 compared to NASA's $18,137,000,000. This means that Obama wants to remove the poulty sum that NASA already gets and give it to the sector that already gets the largest slice of the pie (even the DoD only gets $651 Billion.) Not only is this hiediously unfair on those in the Aerospace industry, but we know the result of budget cuts at NASA, they equal dead astronuats and failed programmes. If Obama gets in you can bet you hinie that his 5 years delay will turn into a cancellation, all so the already bloated Health Sector can gulp up a few more dollars which could very well mean live and death for those at NASA.
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Post by wdmundt on Apr 28, 2008 20:16:42 GMT -4
No matter who the next president turns out to be, he or she will have very serious budget issues. McCain has strongly suggested tax cuts and budget cuts as his cure for the economy -- which surely can't be good news for NASA. Clinton has suggested she'd increase the NASA budget, but that doesn't mean she'll be able to do so.
Clearly we have the resources to do whatever we'd like to do in space, but it will take inspiration to set any large, revolutionary plan in motion. The "moon, mars and beyond" program has been hampered by limited funding since it began, as far as I can tell. Trying to do shuttle, station, everything else AND develop new vehicles at the same time within a more or less fixed budget just isn't going to cut it.
Obama says the space program isn't inspirational, anymore -- and he's right. The problem is that the paying stuff isn't very sexy (and not very economical, anyway) and the sexy stuff doesn't offer much in the way of economic return. It is going to be a hard sell for any candidate to show why we should be spending money on space exploration, when we have so many problems at home -- just as happened in the early 1970s.
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Post by PhantomWolf on Apr 28, 2008 21:04:58 GMT -4
Well a way to start is to point out that every dollar spent on Space Exploration is spent on Earth and goes into making jobs for everyday Americans right the way across the US. Follow that up with the benifits of space exploration feeding back into the US industies as they use the technology and techniques developed for the space flight right back into down to earth applications.
Space flight might not be sexy any more, but one of the reasopns for that is we're only repeating Mercury, and underfunding NASA isn't the way to do that, especially when that underfunding is caused by taking the little they have and giving it to a great big black hole that is the US health system. Perhaps if Obama wants to change things, insteadof taking NASA's pitance and throwing it away, he should find a way to sort out the failing heath care system so that it isn't a drain on the US Taxpayer. Then he'd likely find that he'd have plenty of money and not just for NASA.
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Jason
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Post by Jason on Apr 28, 2008 21:37:56 GMT -4
Well, if you ask me, all "spiritual advisors" are snake oil salesmen. And in the wider context of his speech (rather than the standard 4 second sound bite) I don't think what Wright said was really all that out of line. He has said some crazy things, no doubt -- but Obama is not Wright and Wright is not Obama. The question is -- what does Obama stand for and what does he say, not what does Wright say. And a good way of figuring out what Obama stands for is to ignore the platitudes he's spouting on the campaign trail and look instead at his actions, including who he associates with. That's bordering on a racist statement, isn't it? Turn it around "I don't know if a couple of black guys can really understand the dynamics of white anger." Doesn't sound very PC to me.
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Post by wdmundt on Apr 29, 2008 14:28:42 GMT -4
Racist? No more than if I said I couldn't understand Eskimo disillusionment. I'm not making any judgment about African Americans or about black anger -- only a judgment about my lack of knowledge about it.
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Jason
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Post by Jason on Apr 29, 2008 15:05:41 GMT -4
I wasn't seriously accusing you of racism - in fact I think I generally agree with the point you were making, though I would have framed it in cultural terms rather than racial ones. It's just that I don't think you have to understand "black anger" to realize that Jeremiah Wright is not entirely rational in his opinion of us white folks.
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Post by Ginnie on Apr 29, 2008 17:20:43 GMT -4
Jason, are you serious? I for one, don't understand either. I am too ignorant about the whole matter. .
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