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Post by inconceivable on Apr 24, 2008 15:06:56 GMT -4
The proof that LLREs are on the moon reflecting laser light back to earth is a subject that concerns me. Three missions had LLREs. Apollo 11, Apollo 14 and Apollo 15. Could they have been put there by unmanned satellites?
Apollo 11 for example was preceded by two Ranger crafts. Ranger 6 and Ranger 8 both impacted into the Mare Tranquillitatis prior to Apollo 11 landing.
Apollo 14 for example was preceded by Ranger 7.
The third LLRE on the moon was from Apollo 15 which incidentally landed in the Mare Imbrium. The Laser Reflector would have been the unmanned Lunakhod 1. Which was also in the Mare Imbrium. Considering the USSR and USA were cooperative.
Also the earlier Rangers were designed with capsules that would withstand impacts into the lunar surface and to return data back to Earth. (Seismometer)
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Post by scooter on Apr 24, 2008 15:19:35 GMT -4
As I understand it, there were no "capsules" in the Ranger craft designed to withstand impact. And I believe they were sequential, so 7,9 and 9 preceded Apollo 11. A simple search will clarify these details.
Mare Imbrium is a pretty big place, and I'm confident that the Soviet and US landing sites were some hundreds of miles apart. The LLREs require a pretty accurate aiming to get proper readings.
The US and USSR were not cooperative.
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Post by sts60 on Apr 24, 2008 15:51:25 GMT -4
The proof that LLREs are on the moon reflecting laser light back to earth is a subject that concerns me. Three missions had LLREs. Apollo 11, Apollo 14 and Apollo 15. Could they have been put there by unmanned satellites?
No. The Rangers did not carry any laser retroreflectors.
The third LLRE on the moon was from Apollo 15 which incidentally landed in the Mare Imbrium. The Laser Reflector would have been the unmanned Lunakhod 1. Which was also in the Mare Imbrium. Considering the USSR and USA were cooperative.
No. The US and USSR were in competition, not cooperation. And the Apollo and Luna landing sites were not that close.
Also the earlier Rangers were designed with capsules that would withstand impacts into the lunar surface and to return data back to Earth. (Seismometer)
The first six Rangers all failed for various reasons. Only R4 and R6 hit the Moon at all. And the seismometers were encased in fluid which allowed them to come upright after the designed hard landings; such an arrangement is not suitable for a retroreflector.
In any case, there is no evidence whatsoever for such retroreflectors being used on Ranger spacecraft.
The idea that Ranger spacecraft (or any others, for that matter) may have been used to fake the LRRRs is at odds with historical reality and unsupported in any way.
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Post by JayUtah on Apr 24, 2008 15:54:35 GMT -4
Could they have been put there by unmanned satellites?
Affirmative rebuttal. Valid only if you can show they were placed by unmanned "satellites."
Also the earlier Rangers were designed with capsules that would withstand impacts into the lunar surface and to return data back to Earth. (Seismometer)
Correct, but irrelevant. The design practice for a seismometer-equipped impactor is not sufficient for the constraints applying to a precision optical assembly.
In the case of Apollo 11's LRRR, the placement was interactive with the observatory testing it. Aldrin fine-tuned the LRRR alignment until the observatory reported a suitable reflection. Under your theory, this would require collusion with the observatory to claim no signals were being received from the (allegedly preplaced) reflector, then suddenly to claim success. What is the evidence of such a collusion?
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Post by sts60 on Apr 24, 2008 15:59:11 GMT -4
I love the sound of batting practice on a nice spring day.
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Post by gwiz on Apr 24, 2008 16:02:16 GMT -4
Check how far apart Lunokhod 1 and Apollo 15 landed - opposite sides of Mare Imbrium, several hundred km: www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/mapcatalog/LandingSite/index.htmlAlso consider that laser returns from the Apollo 15 site were not received until the Apollo 15 crew deployed their deflector, and good returns were never received from Lunokhod 1's site. I love these claims that Apollo was faked to impress the Russians, and simultaneously the Russians were helping the US to uphold the fake. |
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Apr 24, 2008 17:24:44 GMT -4
I'm beginning to wonder if people don't remember the Cold War anymore. Of course, it ended long enough ago that many of the younger generation weren't around.
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Post by Ginnie on Apr 24, 2008 17:38:39 GMT -4
We had our big Cold War battle with the Russians on the ice (where we fight real good), in 1972.
Barely won the series though, and learned that perhaps we didn't have all the best hockey players in the world. We also learned by watching the Russians, how to play hockey better.
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reynoldbot
Jupiter
A paper-white mask of evil.
Posts: 790
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Post by reynoldbot on Apr 24, 2008 18:42:28 GMT -4
Strange that you could believe NASA was capable of building probes that could place LLRE's on the moon with great accuracy and precision but at the same time was technologically incabable of sending men there.
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Post by JayUtah on Apr 24, 2008 19:10:59 GMT -4
The unmanned deployment proposal in this thread supposes that an impactor for a seismometer will serve an optical assembly. Which is analogous to saying that if a golf ball can withstand the stroke of a golf club, then so should a Faberge egg.
I see this all the time: naive comparisons made according to absolutely no understanding of the underlying principles, requirements, or constraints.
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Post by sts60 on Apr 24, 2008 20:00:11 GMT -4
Strange that you could believe NASA was capable of building probes that could place LLRE's on the moon with great accuracy and precision but at the same time was technologically incabable of sending men there. As I've mentioned before, I don't think inconceivable necessarily believes it. I think he/she simply likes to toss around such claims for fun. I don't particularly mind - it's not as if we're overwhelmed with large numbers of HBs right now, and as I said before I enjoy batting practice.
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Post by Data Cable on Apr 25, 2008 1:00:54 GMT -4
if a golf ball can withstand the stroke of a golf club, then so should a Faberge egg. Mmmmm... scrambled Faberge  |
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Bob B.
Bob the Excel Guru?
Posts: 3,072
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Post by Bob B. on Apr 25, 2008 10:32:44 GMT -4
Apollo 11 for example was preceded by two Ranger crafts. Ranger 6 and Ranger 8 both impacted into the Mare Tranquillitatis prior to Apollo 11 landing. Yes, Rangers 6 and 8 IMPACTED the Moon, i.e. in a manner not survivible by a LRRR. While you're at it, why not Surveyor 5? It landed closer to Apollo 11 than either of the Ranger impact sites; about 42 kilometers away. Of course close only counts in horseshoes and hand gernades. There have been no robotic landings that correspond with any of the LRRR locations. Apollo 14 for example was preceded by Ranger 7. True, but Ranger 7 impacted about 237 kilometers away from Apollo 14. Surveyors 3 was closer at about 179 kilometers, but again, not close enough. The third LLRE on the moon was from Apollo 15 which incidentally landed in the Mare Imbrium. The Laser Reflector would have been the unmanned Lunakhod 1. Which was also in the Mare Imbrium. Lunakhod 1 landed on the opposite side of Mare Imbrium about 1,200 kilometers from Apollo 15. In fact, the only previous probe that came anywhere near the Apollo 15 site was Luna 2 that impacted the Moon in 1959. Considering the USSR and USA were cooperative. Say what?! Distances are based on coordinates listed in this web page: seds.lpl.arizona.edu/~spider/hot/l-sites.html |
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Post by dinsmore on Apr 25, 2008 13:30:00 GMT -4
As reported in the Apollo 11 Preliminary Science Report, the width of the laser beam upon striking the Moon is about 1 mile.
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raven
Jupiter
That ain't Earth, kiddies.
Posts: 509
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Post by raven on Apr 25, 2008 20:12:14 GMT -4
As reported in the Apollo 11 Preliminary Science Report, the width of the laser beam upon striking the Moon is about 1 mile. Which gives you an approximately 3 mile circle in which the laser would have to be in order to hit the reflector, still far, FAR away from the Russian probe. To give an idea of how far 1200 miles is, my family drove from Prince George, British Columbia, Canada to Edmonton, Alberta, also Canada. That was about 1000 miles. Get a map or Google Earth, and you will see it would be hard to mess that up. In case I am wrong about the 3 miles, I am basing my number on the duck joke, as in 'there is two ducks in front, two ducks in the back, and one in the middle, what is the minimum number of ducks?' |
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