reynoldbot
Jupiter
A paper-white mask of evil.
Posts: 790
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Post by reynoldbot on Apr 26, 2008 1:59:23 GMT -4
yeah it's almost exactly 1200 miles from Houston TX to Minneapolis MN, which is a drive I have taken several times and can attest personally to it's duration. They're not exactly close. The drive through Dallas is especially long and painful.
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Post by PhantomWolf on Apr 26, 2008 6:15:58 GMT -4
In the case of Apollo 11's LRRR, the placement was interactive with the observatory testing it. Aldrin fine-tuned the LRRR alignment until the observatory reported a suitable reflection. Under your theory, this would require collusion with the observatory to claim no signals were being received from the (allegedly preplaced) reflector, then suddenly to claim success. What is the evidence of such a collusion? Could you reference this Jay? I was under the impression that it took them a bit to locate the reflector
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Post by Grand Lunar on Apr 26, 2008 6:55:28 GMT -4
It seems HBs are willing to ignore any evidence of their choosing.
They disregard the moon rocks, the laser ranging experiments, the Doppler plots, the fact that the comm traffic was monitored by other nations, including Russia, and the observations by amatuer astronomers.
I wonder what excuses will emerge if the LRO images the landing sites. Let's see just how far the goalposts can move.
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Post by dinsmore on Apr 26, 2008 11:43:56 GMT -4
The Apollo 11 Preliminary Science Report says (p.3) -
On the same day the LRRR was deployed satisfactorily on the surface of the Moon, attempts were made to range on the reflector from the Lick Observatory in California and from the McDonald Observatory in Texas. Some time was required for the ranging attempts to be successful because, initially, there was some uncertainty as to the location of the landing site. After a few days, this problem was solved, but ground-instrument difficulties and weather problems caused further delays. In approximately a week, both observatories had received signals reflected by the LRRR.
- which suggests a reflection was not obtained until after the astronauts had departed the Moon.
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Post by JayUtah on Apr 26, 2008 12:55:19 GMT -4
Yes, you're right. I'm either thinking of something else Aldrin fine-tuned interactively or else one of the other LRRRs. There's a snippet of conversation in my head, but I can't find it in any of the transcripts.
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Post by LunarOrbit on Apr 26, 2008 12:59:46 GMT -4
I'll inform the t-shirt supplier that we'll need a couple more.
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Post by Count Zero on Apr 26, 2008 13:41:54 GMT -4
Yes, you're right. I'm either thinking of something else Aldrin fine-tuned interactively or else one of the other LRRRs. There's a snippet of conversation in my head, but I can't find it in any of the transcripts. I seem to recall capcom telling the crew that a signal had been bounced off the LRRR and received while the crew was still out on EVA.
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Post by JayUtah on Apr 26, 2008 13:47:38 GMT -4
Yeah, that's the snippet I recall. I'm glad I'm not entirely nuts. That's not equivalent to saying Aldrin placed it interactively, but I recall a conversation talking about finally having receive a return.
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Post by Count Zero on Apr 26, 2008 13:57:17 GMT -4
I didn't find it in ALSJ. I did find this:
[In Houston, the Experiments tells the Flight Director that " Lick Observatory (in California) did get a return from the laser". Bruce asks if he can tell the crew this news, but the Flight Director decides not to distract them. McCandless passes the news up to Collins at 112:34:29. There is no further mention of the experiment during the flight.]
[James E. Faller, LRRR PI, from a 2005 e-mail - "Lick did range on July 20th, and I was there as a part of that activity with the group controlling the laser and return electronics. To my knowledge, there were no known returns. As you may know, a search was required as they didn't land at the planned spot. It was a search for a weak signal in a large lunar landscape."]
Perhaps I'm thinking of Apollo 15?
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Post by Kiwi on Apr 28, 2008 4:45:20 GMT -4
Remarks about lasers during Apollo 11, but excluding those about deploying the LRRR, follow. Taken from an amalgamation in Word 95 of three online PDFs.
Inconceivable: What does your abbreviation LLRE stand for? Don't you mean LRRR for Lunar Ranging Retro-Reflector? If so, it might pay to change the title of the thread to what people understand.
35:25:42 Duke: Apollo 11, Houston. Over. 35:25:48 Collins: Houston, Apollo 11. 35:25:49 Duke: Roger. We got a little laser visual experiment we'd like to - for you to do for us. If - if you got the Earth through any of your windows or through the telescope, would you so advise? Over. 35:26:09 Collins: Stand by one, Charlie. 35:26:15 Collins: At this roll attitude, what should our high gain angles be? Maybe that would help us locate you. We don't see you in the lens. 35:26:23 Duke: Stand by. 35:27:27 Duke: Hello, Apollo 11. Houston. Those high gain angles are pitch minus 70, yaw 90. We think the Earth is apparently pretty close to Plus-Z axis. Over. 35:27:40 Collins: Okay. 35:28:00 Collins: Okay, Charlie. I got you in the telescope. 35:28:08 Duke: Roger, Apollo 11. We've got a laser that we're going to - It's a blue-green laser that we're going to flash on and off at a frequency of on for a second, off for a second. It's coming out of McDonald Observatory near El Paso, which is - should be right on the terminator - or right inside the terminator. We are going to activate that momentarily. Would you please take a look through the telescope and see if you can see it. Over. 35:28:42 Collins: Telescope? Or sextant? 35:28:45 Duke: Either one. Over. 35:28:49 Collins: Okay, I'll try it with the telescope; and if I don't see it there, then I'll try the sextant. 35:28:53 Duke: Roger. We'll give you the word when they've got it turned on. Over. 35:28:58 Collins: Okay. 35:29:44 Duke: 11, Houston. They don't have it turned on yet. We'll give you the word when they got it turned on. Over. 35:29:50 Collins: Okay. 35:30:42 Duke: Hello, Apollo 11. Houston. We noticed the Cryo pressure dropped a moment ago. Did you stir up the Cryos? Over. 35:30:50 Armstrong: Roger. We've finished our cycling operations. 35:30:53 Duke: Roger. Copy. Out. 35:33:53 Duke: Hello, Apollo 11. Houston. McDonald's got the laser turned on, would you take a look? Over. 35:34:02 Collins: Okay, Charlie. 35:34:04 Duke: It's bluish-green. 35:36:48 Duke: 11, Houston. We got some shaft and trunnion for you that might tweak it up a little bit. Shaft of 141.5, trunnion of 39.5. Over. 35:37:07 Armstrong: Okay. Stand by. 35:38:55 Duke: Apollo 11, Houston. If you see it, it should be coming up - appear to be coming up, through the clouds. McDonald reports that there's a break in the clouds that they're beaming this thing through. Over. 35:39:09 Armstrong: Roger. 35:39:54 Duke: Hello, Apollo 11. Houston. You can terminate the exercise on the laser. Our rates are steady enough now for - to commence the PTC. Over. 35:40:06 Aldrin: Okay, Houston. Neither Neil nor Mike can see it. Incidentally, those shafts and trunnions just missed pointing at the world. 35:40:17 Duke: Roger. Thank you.
111:31:46 Armstrong: While you're getting that, I've got to get this camera. 111:31:55 Aldrin: ... This - This one's in. No problem. 111:31:58 Armstrong: Okay. Stand by a second. 111:32:02 McCandless: Neil, this is Houston. Request an EMU check. Over. 111:32:09 Armstrong: Roger. Got 3.8 and I got 54 on the O2 and no flags, and my flow is in Min. 111:32:xx PAO (Riley): The Lick Observatory in California reports a return on that laser experiment. 111:33:46 McCandless: Neil and Buzz, for your information, your consumables remain in good shape. Out.
112:34:17 McCandless: Roger. I guess that takes care of the news for today, Mike. 112:34:23 Collins: Rog. … 112:34:29 McCandless: You might be interested in knowing, Mike, that we have gotten reflections back from the laser reflector array they deployed, and we may be able to get some information out of that a little later. 112:34:45 Collins: Rog. I need a very precise position, because I can only do a decent job of scanning maybe one of those grid squares at a time. The area that we've been sweeping covers 10's and 20's and 30's of them. 112:35:00 McCandless: Roger. We understand. This is intended to be your last P22. We don't want to use up too much fuel in this effort. Over.
123:27:10 Aldrin: Houston, we've got two angles here at three minutes in ascent. Would you confirm those? Pitch 134 and yaw minus 32. Over. 123:27:25 Evans: Tranquility Base. Roger. We verify; those are correct. 123:28:xx PAO (White): This is Apollo Control. Here in Mission Control Center Flight Director Glynn Lunney is polling the various positions here in the control room on their readiness to go ahead with the ascent from this next pass as the command module comes around the moon, and we're some 53 minutes now away from ascent. Meanwhile back at the scientific experiment situation, another attempt is scheduled today to shoot another laser beam up to the laser retroreflector, which is the other part of the experiment package left on the moon. The seismic experiment will continue to record and send back measurements to Mission Control and will probably receive its strongest signal when the ascent engine ignites and starts Eagle on its way into lunar orbit and rendezvous with Columbia. There's considerable amount of conversation going on with the crew even though command module Columbia is behind the moon at this time. Rather than disconnect the air-ground line and be in a tape play-back mode, we'll leave a circuit up all the way through to loss of signal on the next rev when both spacecraft will go behind the moon. At 123 hours, 29 minutes, and standing by, this is Apollo Control. 123:30:41 Evans: Tranquility Base, Houston. 123:30:46 Armstrong: Go ahead. 123:30:48 Evans: Roger. Eagle's looking real fine to us down here. We have a fairly high confidence that we know the position of the LM. However, it is possible that we may have a plane change, but the - In the worst case, it would be up to 30 feet per second. And, of course, we don't expect that at all.
125:58:27 Capcom: Hey, Eagle. Houston loud and clear. Columbia was very weak. We were unable to read him. 125:58:36 Aldrin: Roger. We saw you come up over the horizon and it looks like you had a laser operating. Could you confirm that? 125:58:46 Capcom: Eagle, Houston. Stand by. We'll check it. And, Eagle, Houston. Can you give us a burn report ? 125:59:01 Aldrin: Roger. Stand by.
128:54:39 Armstrong: And I thought I'd just take about five seconds here and see if I could get 000 gone, since we're fairly close to gimbal lock right now. 128:54:56 Capcom: Eagle, Houston. That's fine. 128:56:xx PAO: This is Apollo Control. Some 6 minutes 40 seconds remaining until Apollo 11 goes behind the moon on the 27th revolution. The signal from the passive seismometer, which was left on the moon by the crew of Eagle, was lost for 30 minutes beginning about five minutes before Eagle took off this morning. The signal was lost because of a equipment problem that the Canary Island tracking station. The Seismic equipment is back on line now, and is beginning to record lunar day surface temperatures. The dust detector recorded zero dust after Eagle lift off. The laser ground station have not yet acquired a return signal from the Laser Ranging Retro Reflector. Five minutes away from loss of signal with Apollo 11. We will continue to monitor the air-to-ground as the spacecraft goes over the hill. The crew now is engaged in the decontamination procedures inside the lunar module prior to transferring back into the command module. 128:58:03 Capcom: Columbia and Eagle, Houston. About five minutes to LOS. Your LM jet time will be 131 plus 52, and I have the rest of the maneuver Pad if you want it now, or I can give it to you on the next time around.
151:36:58 Capcom: Roger. And the next question from our panel is for Buzz. We recall that he reported seeing a laser upon AOS of the Earth the first time after - the first REV after ascent, and we're wondering what color the beam was and if he could determine at the approximate location with respect to the Earth. Over. 151:37:25 Aldrin: It was mostly white, perhaps a tinge of yellowish color to it; and it seemed to be - as I recall it, the terminator of the Earth was toward the horizon and seemed to be about a quarter to a third of the way down from - down towards the terminator of the Earth - from the opposite horizon. That's a third to a quarter Earth radii. Over. 151:38:10 Capcom: Roger. And that puts it in the light side? Over. 151:38:18 Aldrin: Roger. Yes, it was in the light side. The Earth was about - a two-thirds lit Earth, with the terminator down toward the horizon. And now coming from the opposite limb of the Earth, the sunlight limb, coming down about one-quarter to one-third of a radius in from the limb. Generally, pensively located with respect to a line drawn perpendicular to the terminator that goes through the center. Over. 151:38:58 Capcom: Roger, Buzz. We copy. 151:39:02 Aldrin: And I got pictures of that. I'm sure that will show up. 151:39:07 Armstrong: And I saw that, too. It was a very bright spot of light and I confirm Buzz's observation of its position.
180:22:21 Capcom: Roger. For your information, the laser from McDonald Observatory in West Texas will be up from about 181 hours and 30 minutes, on for one hour. You should be able to spot the earth out of the number 1 window every time you pass roll 357 degrees and then, of course, you're in West Texas. Over. 180:22:47 Armstrong: Okay. Thank you. 180:23:07 Collins: How about the number 5 window? 180:23:16 Capcom: Stand by a minute. 180:23:24 Capcom: Roger. For the number 5 window. That'll be - every time you pass 230 degrees in roll. Over. 180:23:32 Collins: Beautiful. Thank you. 180:23:36 Collins: You guys are on your toes down there. 180:23:39 Capcom: Roger. - -
182:07:59 Capcom: 11, Houston. We got some word just a moment ago that the McDonald Observatory is - said they had picked up the spacecraft in their telescope. Over. 182:08:09 Armstrong: Outstanding. We have been looking for their laser but haven't had much luck yet. 182:08:16 Capcom: Roger. We'll pass it on to them, Neil. Thank you.
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Post by Count Zero on Apr 28, 2008 5:29:23 GMT -4
That's what I remember. I hadn't realized it was the PAO speaking (and therefore the astronauts would not have heard the comment). Thanks Doug!
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Post by Kiwi on Apr 28, 2008 7:39:06 GMT -4
That's what I remember. I hadn't realized it was the PAO speaking (and therefore the astronauts would not have heard the comment). Thanks Doug! No worries, mate! (You probably heard something like that when you were down here in New Zealand.) I was pleased to find a PDF that included the Public Affairs Officers because they were so valuable to us laypeople when listening in on the radio to the transmissions from the Capcoms and Apollo 11. Without the PAOs' explanations we would have hardly understood what was going on. Plus they sometimes provided interesting information like that which wasn't part of the transmissions. It's a pity that the PAOs aren't included in the Apollo Lunar Surface Journals or Apollo Flight Journals, because they certainly help improve our understanding: -- 79:09:xx PAO: This is Apollo Control, Houston at 79 hours 9 minutes now into the flight of Apollo 11. We currently read an apolune of 170.2 nautical miles a perilune of 61.2 nautical miles. Those listing of figures that you heard passed up to the crew were maneuver pad updates. The first group for LOI-2. We're now looking at the time of burn of 80 hours 11 minutes 36 seconds, which should revise our orbital parameters to 65.7 nautical miles by 53.7 nautical miles. A Delta-V of 159.2 feet per second, and a burn duration of 17 seconds, some 17 seconds. So at 79 hours 9 minutes into the flight of Apollo 11, continuing to monitor, this is Apollo Control, Houston. 79:18:xx PAO: This is Apollo Control, Houston. At 79 hours 18 minutes now into the flight of Apollo 11. A quiet period at this time, as the Apollo 11 spacecraft continues its pass around the front side of the moon. Our current altitude, very close to apolune, now reading 166.7 nautical miles. Our orbital parameter is 170.2 by 61.2 nautical miles. Current spacecraft weight in orbit, 71,622 pounds. We'll continue to keep the line up and continue to monitor the Apollo 11 crew. No doubt, at this time, preoccupied very probably with the alignment of their G&N platform. At 79 hour and 19 minutes into the flight of Apollo 11, this is Apollo Control, Houston.
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Bob B.
Bob the Excel Guru?
Posts: 3,072
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Post by Bob B. on Apr 28, 2008 8:10:05 GMT -4
Inconceivable: What does your abbreviation LLRE stand for? Don't you mean LRRR for Lunar Ranging Retro-Reflector? If so, it might pay to change the title of the thread to what people understand. LLRE = Lunar Laser Ranging Experiment. It was the experiment to measure the distance between Earth and the Moon. The LRRRs were the devices placed on the Moon to facilitate the experiment.
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Post by Kiwi on Apr 28, 2008 8:13:00 GMT -4
Inconceivable: You say there is absolutely no proof for the laser reflectors. Do you think that the following captions and their photos, along with all the other documentation, are no evidence whatsoever? AS11-40-5942 ( 870k or 191k ) 110:58:16. This photograph is the first in a sequence of pictures Neil took of Buzz carrying the EASEP out to the deployment site a short way south of the spacecraft. In this picture, he is walking across the raised rim of the small crater he comments on at 110:58:16. Note the spray of dust spreading out in front of his left boot. The piece of equipment in his right hand is the LRRR, while the seismometer package is in his left hand. Note that, in this view from behind Buzz, we are seeing his OPS antenna edge on. In lower-quality scans and prints, it all but disappears. A detail shows the two columns of horizontal Velcro strips on the back of his PLSS. AS11-40-5943 ( 939k or 207k ) 110:58:24. Buzz has gone beyond the small crater and is looking for a flat spot on which to put the LRRR. Note the depth of the footprints he has left in the soft rim of the crater. Beyond the crater, where he is standing at this moment, his footprints are only a fraction of an inch deep and are more typical of the footprints that he and Neil normally leave. Note that Buzz has just walked between some rounded, partially-buried boulders, which he mentions at 110:58:24. This picture is the first of a stereopair Neil takes of them. AS11-40-5944 ( 980k or 210k ) 110:58:24. Neil has stepped to his left to get a stereo companion to 5943. Note the build up of soil on the base of these boulders due to ejecta from the foreground crater. Note that there is another split boulder in this photograph, to Buzz's right. From 5948, we know that Buzz will put the LRRR down northwest of this boulder and the seismometer southeast of it. This means that at some point after 5944, Buzz will move about 10 meters (30 feet) to his right. Figure 3-16 ( 196k re-draft by Thomas Schwagmeier) in the Apollo 11 Preliminary Science Report shows his path from the SEQ Bay out to the deployment area. AS11-40-5945 ( 936k or 207k ) 110:59:28 Buzz has put the LRRR down on the surface and has turned to his left to find a spot for the seismometer. AS11-40-5946 ( 1052k or 223k ) 111:02:08 Buzz has placed the seismometer package on the surface and is using a built-in maneuvering handle to adjust the pointing and leveling. Note the dirt that he has pushed out of the way on the southside of the package in his attempt to get it level. Note, also, that the eastern rim of the double crater under Neil's LM window can be seen at the left edge of this photograph. The Gold camera is to the right of Buzz and the LRRR is to the left of him with the TV camera beyond. AS11-40-5952 ( 322k or 1495k ) 111:07:10 Post-deployment documentation photo of the LRRR with the stereo camera perched on a rock in the background. As of February 2005, the retroreflectors were still being used in conjunction with a dedicated facility at the MacDondald Observatory in Texas.
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Post by Kiwi on Apr 28, 2008 8:18:19 GMT -4
LLRE = Lunar Laser Ranging Experiment. Oops! Yet another of the eleventy-zillion Apollo acronyms that has been missing from my vocabulary and glossary. Apologies to Inconceivable.
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