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Post by Apollo Gnomon on Oct 9, 2008 20:47:36 GMT -4
Hey, check this out: www.greensteamengine.com/ It's an interesting variation of steam engine. Uses a flex-rod to change the reciprocating piston action into rotation instead of using a crank. Also, lends itself to low quality "saturated" steam rather than high-pressure, high temperature "dry" steam. The inventor is running some if not all of his prototypes on a pressure-cooker. This kind of system would work great for harvesting waste heat from cooling systems. He has a CD of plans and a parts kit to build one. I might ask Santa for one for Christmas I looked at your link, interesting experiments on wireless power transmission. For line-of-sight, the IR/PV systems might work, but PV has terrible conversion efficiency still. I was reading a website on moon resources (I'll post a link later) and they were talking about how much aluminum the moon has available for wiring. I worry about the thermal cycling of aluminum wiring - it has caused house fires when it works loose from connections. And of course the moon is subject to some pretty serious thermal cycling....
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sniffy
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Post by sniffy on Oct 9, 2008 22:41:57 GMT -4
Certain metalic fires are extremely dangerous, I recall something about aluminum and iron oxide. Anyway you never screw different metals together to make an electircal conection.
What is the reducing agent in aluminium+iron oxide>aluminium oxide ...In this reaction, Aluminium looses electrons which are gained by the iron oxide. This loss of electrons is known as oxidation. ... answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080126021410AA2toz7 - 41k
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Post by sniffy on Oct 9, 2008 22:48:24 GMT -4
Looking at the steam engine, the boiler is a little bulky. Many plants and even kitchens have steam. There should be a standard connector hose that could hook up with the steam pipe.
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Post by Apollo Gnomon on Oct 10, 2008 21:57:18 GMT -4
Um, not quite true, and not really the issue. The issues with aluminum house wiring have to do with the thin oxidation layer on aluminum, which is an insulator, and improperly installed wiring. Newer equipment took into account the different expansion/contraction rates of Al wire and Fe screws and terminal boxes, and reduced the chances for installer error. Aluminum wire is frequently used to make the run from pole to house. It has to be a bigger gauge per amp of load, but the wiring is still lighter weight than copper. The problems with Lunar wiring would be the extreme temperature swing of the Lunar environment. If it works loose in the connections, it's not gonna catch fire, and the aluminum is hardly going to oxidise but the connection might fail.
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Post by sniffy on Oct 11, 2008 9:13:04 GMT -4
Never screw different types of metal together--maybe not. Still, it seems a lot of electircal fires start because of that. www.inspect-ny.com/aluminum/pl2p8.htmThe CPSC Recommendation against the use of twist-on connectors for aluminum wire is soundly based. There is no reason to believe that the Ideal #65 connector, recently UL listed for aluminum-to-copper combinations, overcomes the fundamental deficiencies of this type of connection for applications with aluminum wire. The Ideal #65 connector has a zinc-plated steel spring. A combination known to be bad in contact with aluminum. Containing a free-burning oxide inhibitor grease, and having a free-burning thermoplastic shell, the connector can ignite readily if failures of the types shown here occur.
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Post by Apollo Gnomon on Oct 11, 2008 13:16:31 GMT -4
I'm getting the feeling you want to argue more than you want to brainstorm novel methods of creating mechanical action without combustion. But I like the other conversation, so I'll ignore the arguing. I looked into the flex-rod steam engine I linked to above, and some steam modelers have roundly trounced his CD of plans as over priced and under-detailed. I like the notion of slapping a steam engine together with readily available hardware from plumbing and hobby store sources, but I think now I'll ask Santa for one of these www.pmresearchinc.com/store/product.php?productid=3085&cat=4&page=1 for Christmas. I want something rugged that I can use to generate small amounts of power for lab testing. I think I'll eliminate the mechanical variables and go with a proven design so I can concentrate on the pressure supply experiment side. What I need to figure out now is how to make a flash boiler out of something that can hold pressure and withstand microwaves. I'm planning to kludge a pawn-shop microwave as the energy source to heat the water. The Stanley brothers used a copper-tubing flash boiler to have rapidly-available intermittent-duty power for their cars. {edit to add link}
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Post by sniffy on Oct 11, 2008 14:10:31 GMT -4
I am looking at hobby steam boilers. There are some steam boat hobby pages. This is interesting because it would give a clear indication of how efficient the design is. Unless there is a benchmark test, the results are sure to be disputed.
Could you have a solar-to battery-to microwave contraption, that uses steam? Anyway, the basic kits should be ready to go
Hopefully this is a little more contructive.
steam and electric launches and tugboats, steam boilers, steam ... Standard Vertical Fire Tube Steam Boiler Specifications and Prices ... have these boilers been well proven over the past two decades of hobby operation, ... www.steamboating.net/page7.html - 18k - Cached - Similar pages steam and electric launches and tugboats, steam boilers, steam ... Part 9 The Steam System, Description, Discussion Part 10 Steam Boiler and Engine ... A quick and complete course of steam boats, boilers, and engines. ... www.steamboating.net/ - 25k - Cached - Similar pages Jensen Live Steam Hobby Engines Our largest & most powerful Hobby Line Steam Engine, features a double acting ... cylinder Steam Engine engine with its 2-1/2 x 6 boiler, 3 speed pulley, ... www.ministeam.com/acatalog/Steam_Engines.html - 61k - Cached - Similar pages
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Post by smlbstcbr on Oct 11, 2008 14:49:38 GMT -4
IMHO, I believe this thread is straying apart too much. As many noted, any machine that is going to use heath as a mean to produce movement will require a very specialized design concerning the heath transfer system. In an atmospheric environment that is a very friendly mix of gases (like Earth), it is not a problem. But the Moon has a very, very, very, very, very weak atmosphere. Any improvement that has been developed for heath machines, like engines with open or closed cycles, won't be the same in very different conditions. And Thermodynamics states that there is no heath machine that operates beyond the Carnot Efficiency (60% at most). As noted, the versatility, the reliability, the efficiency (there are electrical motors about 90% efficient). Comparing numbers, you have to choose the maximum efficiency. While a heath machine will theoretically have a top efficiency that follows a Carnot cycle, an electrical motor has a real top efficiency of about 90 - 95 %. They are small, nearly no moving parts, a very wide operation range, high starting torque, etc...
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Post by sniffy on Oct 13, 2008 9:41:49 GMT -4
The electric motor is heavy. The batteries are heavy. 95% efficiency is not much help, if the electric engine weights twice as much as a heat engine.
An internal combustion engine, of course, will not work on the moon.
There is argon gas on moon; but certainly it will not jump into the container. Aside from that, it would be a good fluid for a heat engine. Moon crators, not in sunlight, can have a temperature as low as 50 degrees above absolute zero. At the same time, sunlight delivers heat, (from mirrors) at over a thousand watts per meter. This theory is good, but as you mention, we do not have any practical experience with non-combustion heat engines.
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Post by sniffy on Oct 13, 2008 11:46:13 GMT -4
Checking above links for hobby steam engines, this is a miniature steam engine which costs about $100. Distilled water must be use for steam engines. The pdf document explains that a heating tablet is used. Conversion to butane should be possible. Warning! Use of microwave is dangerous, may cause eye damage. Be careful. www.ministeam.com/acatalog/Steam_Engines.htmlThe other link seems to be a full sized boat, cost is thousands of dollars. www.steamboating.net/
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Post by smlbstcbr on Oct 13, 2008 12:32:18 GMT -4
The electric motor is heavy. The batteries are heavy. 95% efficiency is not much help, if the electric engine weights twice as much as a heat engine. An internal combustion engine, of course, will not work on the moon. There is argon gas on moon; but certainly it will not jump into the container. Aside from that, it would be a good fluid for a heat engine. Moon crators, not in sunlight, can have a temperature as low as 50 degrees above absolute zero. At the same time, sunlight delivers heat, (from mirrors) at over a thousand watts per meter. This theory is good, but as you mention, we do not have any practical experience with non-combustion heat engines. Where did you come from with that? Real 95% efficiency is quasi-ideal, comparing it with a theoretical cycle. And about power-weight ratio, the Tesla Roadster motor weights about 30 kilos and delivers an average power of about 190 kW with an efficiency of 85%. And battery technologies have made huge advances, otherwise, you'd still have to plug a laptop to a lead-acid battery.
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Post by sniffy on Oct 13, 2008 15:43:56 GMT -4
If that was true, we would have electric airplanes. The weight is not 30 kilos. Here is what I copy from an auto site: Weight: 2,500 pounds
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Post by Apollo Gnomon on Oct 13, 2008 19:41:32 GMT -4
smlbstcbr stated the MOTOR is 30 kg, not the total vehicle weight. Here's an electric airplane: brantuas.com/ezcalc/dma1.aspYes, it's a toy. The problem with electric motors compared to internal combustion is the weight of the energy source. Electric car motors weigh about 150 lbs less than internal combustion, but the batteries weigh 1 or 2 THOUSAND pounds. So a converted car will weigh considerably more when finished, requiring extra body supports and stronger suspension and brakes. I love electric motors. Yes, they're efficient, and yes, they have one moving part. Or 3, if you use brushes. AC or DC motors are possible from battery power ( with an inverter), and you can do a lot of work with electrical motor power. Battery powered forklifts like www.raymondcorp.com/solutions/RTPC.cfm use AC motors for traction, massive battery that serves as the counterbalance, and use an electric motor to drive the hydraulic pump for the forks power. Let's go back to the original post - what's the premise? People on the moon, who need more than a golf-cart because they're doing something other than a photo safari. Like a bobcat. A bobcat could be driven by electric motor, and the hydraulics can be driven by electric motor. But that's not the totality of the work to be done. The idea of using argon as a working fluid for heat engines on the moon cannot be dismissed with "electric motors are n% efficient." Efficiency has more aspects than just energy input and work output. Durability, duty cycle, manufacturing ease/cost and applicability in a given task are all part of it. Take the Paslode nailgun, for example. Nailguns run off of compressed gas. The gas can be compressed by an electric motor, but they're tethered with a hose to the compressor. The Paslode nailgun uses piezo-ignited butane to push the piston. No hose, no cord. Onboard air compression by rechargable battery has also been tried, but the guns are too heavy for comfort and have too short of a duty cycle. Dewalt has one that I think uses a flywheel to drive the nail. Eh. Flimsy and tend to jam, from what I've heard. Paslode tools with butane cost as much to buy and use for a year of professional-level work as buying a high end ordinary nailgun and compressor. And at the end of a year, the compressor will still work, but the butane cans are all empty and you have to spend the money again to use the butane gun for another year. I've only seen them in use by trim carpenters doing one-or-two nail tasks that pay well enough, and take little enough time-on-task, to make the tool cost effective by preventing the "punch list" carpenter from dragging a compressor all over a 98% complete home and doinking the drywall. Just an example of "efficiency" and efficacy of different machines in different applications. On the moon, there's a lot of solar heat available. The longer I think about this, the more I like the idea of Sterling engines for stationary power generation. Movable mirrors could focus sunlight onto the hot side for almost the entire lit half of the month, and the ground under the station could be used to sink the heat for the cold side. One advantage of using a gas like argon is the temperature range - it would be gas at even the coldest point in a month. PV has no moving parts, but you can't make or repair PV panels with a drill press and lathe. Also, the conversion rate of PV is still pretty low.
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Post by sniffy on Oct 14, 2008 0:27:33 GMT -4
Now the hybrid car makes a bit of sense to me; the motor helps charge the (smaller) batteries. It sure takes a lot of complexity to get a bit of an advantage. There should be quite an advantage to using a noble gas for the fluid; but the only possible place is at the South Pole. Radon liqufies around -60C, though that would be higher in a compressed system. This type of fluid would have low friction, and not foul or corrode the engine. Also quite a bit of energy is lost when bonded molecules absorb the heat by infrared absorption. Does PV mean Photo Voltaic? There does not seem to be a miracle source of energy. The Promotional for batteries, actually highlights the problems. www.johnsoncontrols.com/publish/us/en/products/power_solutions/Battery_Technology_Centers/AGM/Hybrid_Vehicles_and_the_Role_of_Batteries.htmlBenefits at a glance New AGM technology: Improved efficiency of active mass, through better absorption of acid. Minimal shedding of the material from the battery plates, resulting in significantly increased lifespan. Extreme cyclic durability: Higher energy throughput. Three times the cyclic durability of conventional technology batteries. Higher cold start values: Superior starting, even at lower temperatures. Longer life span: Battery does not “age” in the same way as conventional technology batteries. Totally spill- and leak-proof: Complete fitment flexibility and safety. Absolutely maintenance-free: Zero water consumption. Up to 18 months´ shelf life.
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Post by Apollo Gnomon on Oct 15, 2008 23:47:14 GMT -4
I use a type of AGM batteries -- Cyclons.
Originally developed by Gates, the product line of "Spiral wound" sealed-lead-acid batteries has been split into several divisions owned by different manufacturers. Optima batteries are sold in the automotive market, and smaller cells are made by Hawker. They use a lead mesh instead of a solid lead plate, giving them enormous surface area. This makes them great for some applications, like small robots (I use the DT (tall D) cells, 4.5Ah, in 6 and 8 volt packs for different motor platforms) that need full power until dead.
Cyclons are rugged, so they can be used in satellites, race cars, speed-boats, things like that. Cars with extremely high compression (race cars, drag racers, some hot rods) use them to deliver the amount of power required to crank over the engine. And, those machines listed above often spend long periods parked or trailered, so the shelf-life and maintenance advantages pay off.
But Cyclons are terrible car batteries. I have a co-worker with a Cyclon battery in his truck. He thought he needed a "very good" battery, but he doesn't have a high-compression engine. What he has is a battery that doesn't have that "I'll give it a rest, and then one more crank" cold-start capacity of a car battery with thick solid plates. For cold weather a 12v golf-cart (deep cycle) battery would be a better choice.
For me, Cyclons work great, and they withstand experimental overloads and abusive charge/discharge routines. I've only killed one of the 50 I bought surplus, and I've had 2 in a pack just die on me for no reason. Which is why they were surplus for $1 each instead of $9 to $14 each -- the 10v packs were removed from medical equipment. Random cells dying in an age-batch is a no-go for life critical equipment, so the entire batch was sold on auction to a ham radio supply.
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