sniffy
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Posts: 46
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Post by sniffy on Oct 27, 2008 13:22:48 GMT -4
Two parts to the question, in general: My philosophy is to get the right solution to the problem, rather than taking a shot in the dark. We were considering microwave to vaporize water. The microwave element was made for its appliance. It most likely is not the right fit. Can the electrmagnetic spectrum vaporize water? Well, here's the experiment. Two electodes, at each end of a glass tube. You adjust the frequency and voltage to vaporize distilled water. Does 100 volts at 1000 Hertz work best? Distilled water does not conduct electricty.
PART TWO: Is it my job to save the world, when you consider that I put a site like: climatehoax.ca
Yes, I will make a bit of an attempt to save people from themselves. The greenhouse gas hoax is a front for Nuclear power plants. Now, what is that. Well, you take out a mortgate for 15-20 billions dollars and end up with a toxic land fill site.
I see the Euro union doing this, France in particular is trying to pawn off these "toxic mortgages" The McCain-Lieberman ticket is set to make a few friends into billionares. Bill Clinton is sitting on the fence ready to peddle uranium to the winner. He just got $30 million dollars to peddle Kazahkstan uranium. etc. etc.
Anyway if everybody justs thinks I am crass and rude, I don't mind. There's lots of good people out there and I like them.
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Post by smlbstcbr on Oct 27, 2008 14:10:55 GMT -4
Microwaves? I believe ultrasound makes that part better, never seen a nebulizer?
And your experiment is simple, tough lacks a careful analysis. Materials do not behave the same at 1 Hz than 1000 Hz. Water insulates electricity at 1 Hz, but conducts it, notably well, at high frequencies. Microwaves require a high-level electromagnetic analysis.
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Post by Apollo Gnomon on Oct 27, 2008 20:17:23 GMT -4
We were considering microwave to vaporize water. The microwave element was made for its appliance. It most likely is not the right fit. Can the electrmagnetic spectrum vaporize water? Well, here's the experiment. Two electodes, at each end of a glass tube. You adjust the frequency and voltage to vaporize distilled water. Does 100 volts at 1000 Hertz work best? Distilled water does not conduct electricty. One experiment that invalidated the "caloric" theory of heat involved stirring a beaker vigorously with a paddle and measuring the temperature before and after. Thus was born the "kinetic" theory of heat. Microwave ovens heat food by flipping the molecules of water (and a few other things, like fats and Melamine) back and forth, rubbing them together at a molecular level. They heat by friction. Electricity is not exactly the same as "the electromagnetic spectrum." Pumping electricity into the water will not heat it the way that you think. Even with very little conductivity, I think you'll get electrolysis instead of boiling. People pursuing the "water powered car" idea have experimented with different frequencies to try to get "more efficient" electrolysis. So far I'm not convinced. High frequency sound waves can also be used to heat water. Microwaves are about 2400 Megahertz. I had avoided mentioning your site until now. Please comment on that topic in a new thread or a previously established thread. I want to continue this conversation without distractions. Completely disconnected statements. Does not parse. Toxic Mortgages have nothing to do with nuclear waste. They are mortgages sold by the lender to investors, giving the lender motivation to create more loans, rather than better loans. Um, as opposed to the Obama-Powell ticket? Please provide link. The high-jump bar for crass and rude has been set pretty high by Margamatix/lunatic/etc and you haven't even laced your shoes, by comparison. You're fine. We'll let you know before you cross the line :} No, a nebulizer creates very small particles of liquid, suspended in air. Steam is very different. For steam power to work, you have to purge all the air from the system so that only water in liquid or vapor form is present. {edit - because I'm picky about my posts}
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Post by Apollo Gnomon on Oct 27, 2008 22:33:56 GMT -4
Hey, do you have any refs for this? I'm curious, and having trouble finding things on the web other than abstracts of patents and academic papers. Papers are fine, but the abstracts don't tell me what I want to know.
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sniffy
Venus
http://www.climatehoax.ca/
Posts: 46
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Post by sniffy on Oct 28, 2008 6:43:00 GMT -4
Here is basic electricity/electronics, www.play-hookey.com/ac_theory/ac_lc_parallel.htmlYou will find the center frequency for a resonant circuit fc = 1 / (LC)^1/2 I am considering our steam generator as a circuit, the water between plates acts as C = the capacitor. There is no Direct Current flow, just alternating current. The power line transmitts plenty of power, which is 60 cycle A.C. The resistance is ignored, (there has to be some resistance) anyway there would be no loss of energy. Your microwanve exmaple was something like 750/1000; that is the ratio of resistance/reactance. You ask for a "ref": How does the resonant circuit convert heat the water to steam? Water molecules have a dipole, or a positive and negative end. The diple aligns itself with the electric field. The movement causes heat, hence water to steam. (As you mentioned) There is something of a level playing field. Even if there was an accurate, useful paper, things in the realm of thermodynamics ALWAYS have to be tested. For exmple the ideal gas law is a good approximation to Atmospheric Thermodynamics. If you are refining gasoline, it only a vague starting point. Note: Ultrasound transducers follow exaclty the same principles of resonance. I think electronic parts are easier to obtain. OFF TOPIC, you asked for the link Bill Clinton's Green Fund www.judicialwatch.org/blog/clintons-multi-million-dollar-communist-uranium-dealClinton's Multi Million-Dollar Communist Uranium Deal Thu, 01/31/2008 - 12:43 — Judicial Watch Blog Bill Clinton advocated for an oppressive communist leader known for human rights violations, corruption and election fraud to help a Vancouver businessman get uranium and, in return, the millionaire cut a hefty check to the former president’s foundation. ...
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Post by Apollo Gnomon on Oct 28, 2008 18:25:09 GMT -4
Actually, the "ref" I was asking for was a Reference from smlbstcbr regarding the conductance of water at high frequency.
You idea of using the water-capacitor as a part of the resonant circuit to heat that water is interesting, but I think it won't work. As soon as you make some change to the water, the resonant circuit will change frequency and probably stop resonating. The capacitor in an oscillator shouldn't get hot, anyway. If it does, something is wrong.
I've seen diagrams for some pretty scary high-voltage capacitors using water as a dielectric, but that won't do what we want here. Also, 60 hz is pretty slow. I was reading a paper on the electrical properties of water vs. ice today, and 10 Mhz is the frequency they were using. If we're talking about generating heat by flipping water molecules back and forth, faster is better. Voltage will give penetration through the water, but higher frequency will heat the water.
Also, the water capacitor will give some pretty large multi-Farad capacity, which makes for a slow resonance.
I'm not sure that water could be heated effectively by using charged plate electrodes, anyway. The water has to be pure, and deionized to keep the electrodes from corroding. As soon as they start to corrode or leach ions, the water will rapidly begin to conduct electricity, and you'll get H+ and OH- ions building up on the plates - electrolysis.
If you do electrolysis with AC you get both H+ and OH- on the same electrode, and that's dangerous. I know. I blew up my share of beakers doing experiments years ago. My brother was horrified that I managed to blow up a jar of water. At the time I was trying to quantify the amount of Hydrogen that could be harvested at a given amperage and didn't care if they were mixed since I was just going to crunch the numbers anyway, but quickly decided that separating my gasses by using DC would be safer. Then I shattered a beaker when my DC electrodes contacted due to sloppy equipment.
Just for heating the water, a simple resistance heater is about 100% efficient - all the heat is work, all the work is heat. But it's slow. If we're talking about flash-heating a working fluid for steam-type mechanical motion, we want to do it as quickly as possible. The Stanley Steamer used a copper tube flash heater, sort of like a radiator, above an oil flame that could be fired up quickly and driven within a few minutes, and at the time that was pretty quick compared to tank-type steam boilers, and very quick compared to hitching up a horse and cart, and then brushing and feeding the horse at the end of a trip. "Tankless" water heaters today use a very similar design to what the Stanleys used on their cars, to get rapid response and nearly infinite volume of hot water at a given rate of flow.
The efficiency of a microwave oven has to do with the amount of amperage that gets chewed up making the high voltage for the magnetron, losses in the magnetron itself, as well as power used to run lights, fans, the "stirring" paddle, the rotating plate, and interior light. In other words, the other 20 to 30% above the listed output wattage is spent as waste heat, light and mechanical motions.
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sniffy
Venus
http://www.climatehoax.ca/
Posts: 46
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Post by sniffy on Oct 28, 2008 18:54:43 GMT -4
There no reason for the capacitor to heat up.
The capacitor, say foil, glass, water would be in the nanofarad range.
Alternating current does not ionized water much.
Micorwave travels though space. Not needed for this application.
Also note that when water turns to steam, the curcuit cuts out since the capcacitive reactance goes toward infinity. In other words, it turns itself off, rather than waste power. Neat eh! I will doing a few calculations for a day or so; an example will clarify quite a few points.
Used to do quite a bit of electronics, but my eyesight isn't so good anymore.
Back in a few days. Thanks for your comments!
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Post by Apollo Gnomon on Oct 28, 2008 20:39:43 GMT -4
Surely you jest!
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Post by Apollo Gnomon on Oct 28, 2008 20:41:48 GMT -4
I think I gotta chase some of the dead projects off my bench and dust of the o'scope for this conversation. Google and my bookshelf isn't cutting it anymore, I need to just try this.
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Post by smlbstcbr on Oct 28, 2008 22:57:41 GMT -4
Actually, the "ref" I was asking for was a Reference from smlbstcbr regarding the conductance of water at high frequency. Sorry, I'm late at answering this. Water (and all other dielectric materials) have a property called permittivity. In essence, a measure of the magnetic moment of the molecules in the material (my references, well, just remembering my PHYS 200 class at college). Given that a electric field changes the bipolar moment of the molecules, this distorts the electric field inside the material. Consequently, electricity flows in the circuit formed by the material and the source of the electric field (an insulator does conduct electricity). However, the material dissipates very little energy, so the material stores energy as an electric field. Depending on the properties of the material, it will distort more or less the electric field, storing more or less energy. This device is the well known capacitor, and the solution of Maxwell's equations for a capacitor gives a frequency dependant solution. I think of the form is: I c=Cdv/dt, where C is the capacitance and dv/dt is the voltage (electric field) variation over time. As it can be seen, the solutions give a frequency dependant impedance. If you put a v=a·sin(wt), where w is the angular frequency of the voltage source, the current trough the capacitor is: I=Cd(a·sin(wt))/dt = Cwa·cos(wt). Now, note that the magnitude of the current multiplies by the frequency at which the circuit is working. For DC (w=0) there is no current flowing through the circuit, except during the transient. Water is a good dipole, so a capacitor built with water will conduct electricity very well at high frequencies. Depends on the geometry of the capacitor, a priori. As said, when analyzing circuits working at high frequencies, the simple Ohm Law is not enough. Transmission Lines theory must be used, it's essentially Maxwell's laws glorified. I remember hating that class at college.I Hope you will find this information useful, I remember those years at college with hate and love at the same time. EDIT - I suddenly remembered it was phys 200 not 103
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sniffy
Venus
http://www.climatehoax.ca/
Posts: 46
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Post by sniffy on Oct 30, 2008 17:23:32 GMT -4
I don't have a scope; it might be useful to look at the "field" image.
Experiment with 555 timer and "Electric Field"
The Integrated Circuit 555 timer costs a few dollars, and is easy to wire up. Everyone should have one, even if it is only just a confidence booster.
I use a 10 volt D.C. power supply, a plastic tray about 10 cm long, and there is about 10cc of water is the dish.
DO NOT DO THIS WITH LINE VOLTAGE
At each end of the tray, is copper wire wound around aluminum foil. One end is ground, the other, the rectangular pulse signal. At first, the timing capacitor is set so the frequency is less than a hertz, and the operation can be confirmed just with a voltmeter. The capacitor can be then switched for a higher frequency.
The power was too small to generate detectable heat.
The voltage gradient across the 10 cm length of water was linear. In the middle of the "pond" the height of the rectangular pulse was half of ten, or 5 volts. This is a voltage divider rather than, inversely proportional to the square of the distance.
Perhaps your goldfish will align itself to the "electric" field, or you might be able to grow an award winning potted plant.
Sorry I don't have great news about gigawatts of energy.
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Post by Apollo Gnomon on Oct 30, 2008 18:13:21 GMT -4
You have described the first experiment I have written up to try once the Halloween sewing projects are cleaned up in the "lab" (a 24' travel trailer in my back yard, exactly like the famous FEMA trailers only with more windows and features).
End goal of my 1st experiment will be to quantify the capacitance for a given setup of water and plates, by comparison with known values. I use 5v for my timers. I have one with a bank of caps selectable with a dip-switch built on RadioShack perfboard with a leash that plugs into the power rails of breadboard. For this I will probably slap one together on the breadboard. Empty breadboard sockets, by the way, are a pretty nice capacitor for about 1Mhz, I found out. I thought I had a bad 555, until I put the scope on the output pin with no capacitor loaded. That was a fun discovery.
What kind of water did you use?
After that I'll try cranking up the voltage by driving a MOSFET with the 555 pulse. I have a "boat anchor" bench power supply that puts out up to 30vdc at 30A. It's huge and scary looking, especially inside, but it works great. Melts cheap alligator-clamp test leads very well, I've found when charging Cyclons.
{edit - because I'm persnickety}
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Post by Apollo Gnomon on Oct 30, 2008 18:39:49 GMT -4
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sniffy
Venus
http://www.climatehoax.ca/
Posts: 46
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Post by sniffy on Oct 31, 2008 0:32:29 GMT -4
Yes, I watch Sewing with Nancy, every chance I get on PBS.
The water I used was tap water. To make oxyen and hydrogen from water I suspect there has to be acid in the water to ionize it. Otherwise the yield is negligable.
The above posts mention that Ohm's law (lumped parameters) is not good enough.
If you have a dual trace scope, you can have a look at another world. Is there dispersion? (higher frequencies race ahead) How fast do the pulses travel? Do they come into alighment with the lenght of the dish. Can you see the harmonics of the rectangular wave. Does the square wave change: Sine, exponential, van der pol and so on. How does the wave attenuate?
If you do something in the real world, 99 times out a 100 its not in a book. Water is held together by van der Waals forces. The theory is well established, yet rather feeble. We have no idea what this look like on the molecular level.
Carry on professor, and please do be careful with the heavy power. Maybe the switching supply from an old computer will be useful.
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sniffy
Venus
http://www.climatehoax.ca/
Posts: 46
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Post by sniffy on Oct 31, 2008 15:04:11 GMT -4
There is some confusion regarding, capacitance of a physical object. Say that you want to make a high voltage capacitor with a glass plate and two metal sheets on either side. C = 0.224 x eA/d Where C is in picofarads, e is the dielectric constant, A is area in inches and d is thickness in inches. Perhaps there is a formula in metric. Set the thickness of the glass to 1/8 inch, the area is a square foot or 144" square, and the dielectric constant of glass is 8. Type this into the formula bar of Excel = 0.224 * 8 * 144 / ( 1 / 8 ) to get the answer in picofarads 2064.384 And you have about 2.1 nanofarads. A typical RC value might be C = 0.1 mF and R = 10k ohms. Some people are inclined to be creative: Huge resistor-small capacitor: Adds noise. Stray capacitance and resistor tolerance = unpredictable accurracy. Tiny resistor-Huge capacitor: Poor frequency response, uncertain lifespan of electrolytic capacitor. Ref: www.kilowattclassroom.com/Archive/CapXC.pdf
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