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Post by Ginnie on Feb 1, 2009 1:17:43 GMT -4
Do you mean the visuals of Hebrew? It can be very beautiful, but I also have seen comparable manuscripts in other languages. The Book of Kells is amazing visually. I've tried to do calligraphy based on it and found it particularly challenging. Even more so are the decorations and illustrations. images.google.ca/images?gbv=2&hl=en&safe=off&q=book+of+kells&btnG=Search+ImagesI have a few books on Illustrated Manuscripts at home and they blow me away. *snip* They are all very beautiful. Can you imagine being a monk (or similiar scribe) and spending years crouched over a dimly lit desk working on one of these works? Thank you so much, and your right, it's all so very beautiful. Here's is another thing to imagine, the great boon of writing glasses. Suddenly those who would have been forced to abandon such a precious task, could continue. I know what you mean! I have to wear reading glasses now. I'd be quite lost without them.
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Post by gillianren on Feb 1, 2009 1:42:25 GMT -4
I wouldn't rule it out, but I would imagine that people spending their lives in monastaries usually were considered more educated than the average person and would have been literate, if only to be able to read a bible in the first place. True. But according to whatever-book-it-was, this was before then. We're talking second century, maybe third. The very early days of the church. Early Christianity was one of the few religions spread by books, not the spoken word, and the farther the books could be spread, the farther the religion could be spread. So early churches set up copy-houses of parishioners, even though the copyists were themselves illiterate.
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Post by Kiwi on Feb 1, 2009 3:22:10 GMT -4
Perhaps not exactly what you are talking about Ginnie, but I've made my own notes on similar subjects over the years. I'll paste about two A4 pages below, but they won't come out very well as I don't know how to format them the same here, and the help files here seem to be tailored for all the people who aren't on s-l-o-w -- about 2 kb per second -- rural dialup.
TRANSLATIONS OF ANCIENT TEXTS
In Genesis 1:1, 1:26 and 2:8, the English term 'God’ is taken from the Hebrew term elohim. In Genesis 5:24 it is taken from ha elohim, in which ha is the Hebrew equivalent of 'the’. While some scholars say elohim is the plural form of el, others say elim is the plural of el. Nevertheless, elohim is plural and therefore should mean 'Gods’.
The singular — EL — is a very ancient word with a long, etymological history. It has a common origin with other ancient words in other languages — all with a common significant meaning.
The Sumerian EL meant 'brightness' or 'shining' The Akkadian ILU meant 'the bright one' The Babylonian ELLU meant 'the shining one' The Old Welsh ELLYL meant 'a shining being' The Old Irish AILLIL meant 'shining' The Anglo-Saxon AELF meant 'a shining being' The English ELF means 'a shining being' The Old Cornish EL meant 'an angel'
All these terms indicate SHINING or BRIGHTNESS, and therefore indicate that the Hebrew EL needs to be translated not as 'God', but as THE SHINING ONE, and that the plural ELOHIM, a contraction of HA ELOHIM, requires translation as THE SHINING ONES. The term EL is used in Genesis 33:20 and 35:7.
The SHINING ONES are referred to at length in two sources: Sumerian tablets from the Library at Nippur on which they are referred to as the Annanage; and the Hebraic Books of Enoch where they are described as angels.
There are a number of references in the Bible to shining faces or beings, particularly Exodus 34:29, 30 and 35 where Moses' face shone after he talked with God. The New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures translates "shone" as "emitted rays":
EXODUS 34:29 Moses did not know that his face emitted rays.
EXODUS 34:30 The skin of his face emitted rays and they grew afraid of coming near to him.
EXODUS 34:35 The sons of Israel saw Moses' face, that the skin of Moses' face emitted rays.
Other references to shining faces or beings are:
GNB KJ NIV NWT NUMBERS 6:25 gracious shine shine shine PSALMS 31:16 look shine shine shine PSALMS 67:1 look shine shine shine PSALMS 80:1 reveal shine shine beam PSALMS 80:3 show shine shine light PSALMS 80:7 show shine shine light PSALMS 80:19 show shine shine light PSALMS 119:135 teach shine shine shine ECCLESIASTES 8:1 smile shine brightens shine DANIEL 9:17 restore shine look shine DANIEL 12:3 shine shine shine shine MATTHEW 17:2 shining shine shone shone LUKE 2:9 shone shone shone gleamed GNB KJ NIV NWT LUKE 24:4 shining shining gleamed flashing ACTS 12:7 shone shined shone shone
The English elf is related to Middle Low German alf (which means incubus, a mythological creature which mated with women), and Latin albus (white). Genesis 6:4 records that 'Nephilim' (giants) mated with women.
The Books of Enoch and the Sumerian Tablets indicate the Annanage or angels were a culturally and technically advanced race which established an agricultural centre in the Near East — the Garden in Eden — around 8200 BC.
The ancient Greeks held a mystical religious festival in September at Eleusis (note the use of EL) to celebrate Demeter (the God of agricultural fertility) and Dionysus (the God of fruitfulness and vegetation). The Hebrew word which has been translated as 'the heavens' was ha'shemim, a plural form indicating 'the skies'. Shem could also mean 'the heights' and SHM was the root of a word meaning 'plant' or 'vegetation'. Ha'shemim could therefore mean 'the planted Highlands'.
Ha'res, which the Jerusalem Bible translates as 'earth' is capable of being translated as 'the ground' or 'the land' and perhaps means 'lowlands'.
Bara, translated 'create' can also mean 'cut down timber', 'clear ground' or 'fatten oneself', and could also mean 'looked at with pleasure'.
Therefore, Genesis 1:1 could be read as 'In the beginning, the Shining Ones looked [down] with pleasure on the Highlands and the Lowlands.'
The Garden in Genesis has long been called 'the Garden of Eden', but it was actually located 'in Eden', in the eastern part (Genesis 2:8). The man (Adam) was taken from elsewhere and placed in the Garden to cultivate it.
BOOK OF ENOCH 1 ENOCH 20:1-8. These are the names of the Archangels who oversee [the other angels]: URIEL who is in charge of the country round about, and of Tartarus. RAPHAEL who is responsible for the health of men. RAGUEL who judges the good behaviour of the angels. MICHAEL who is over each of the other Archangels and is appointed to command the brave soldiers and, consequently, [is responsible for] the penal, volcanic areas. SARIEL who is responsible for the fate of those angels who transgress [the laws]. GABRIEL who is in charge of Paradise and is over the Serpents and the Cherubim. REMIEL whom the Lord made responsible for spreading abroad the instructions of the Seven Archangels — the Council.
The Hebrew term rapha meant 'healer', 'surgeon' or 'doctor' (RAPHA-EL), hence it is reasonable to deduce that a SERAPH (plural SERAPHIM) was a medical 'angel' or being.
CHERUB probably comes from the early Sumerian KARIBU. KA = cry out. RI = protect. BU = armed man. Therefore, CHERUB probably meant 'an armed man who called out in order to protect', or in modern terms 'sentry' or 'security guard'.
An interesting link between three different sources is revealed in the following:
(1) 2 Peter 2:4 speaks of the angels being punished in hell. The original word used here for 'hell' is 'Tartarus' and is the only place it is used in the Bible.
(2) As shown above, Uriel was in charge of Tartarus and according to the Book of Enoch 21:1-6 he is responsible for the prisoners — similar beings to himself who had rebelled against their leader.
(3) In Homer's Iliad, Tartarus is an underground prison for the lesser gods or spirits, namely Cronus and other Titans who had rebelled against Zeus (Jupiter).
Sources: The Genius of the Few by Christian O'Brien, Turnstone Press Ltd, 1985. Collins Dictionary of the English Language, 1979. New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures, 1984.
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Post by Kiwi on Feb 1, 2009 3:43:11 GMT -4
Continued:--
(As Ginnie says, please "... leave your pistols at the door before coming here..." We don't have to agree or disagree with anything here, and it's not compulsory for us to get our tempers up. A level-headed discussion would be nice. It could also be informative.)
SHOULD THE BIBLE BE TAKEN LITERALLY?
2 Corinthians 3:6 says "The letter kills, but the spirit gives life." Could this be the Bible itself saying "don't take me too literally"? A piece like Romans 7:9-11 where Saint Paul wrote "I died. Sin... put me to death," is obviously saying the same thing. We would be foolish to take it literally.
Jesus tells Nicodemus (John 3:3-8) not to take His words literally. His conversation with the Samaritan woman at the well (John 4:10-11) is another indication that His words should not be taken literally.
It should be remembered that the Hebrews often used hyperbole (extreme exaggeration) in their speech and writing. In these cases they were using a figure of speech which was definitely not intended to be taken literally.
Some of the contradictions on pages 12-14 show that the Bible has many copyists errors which were introduced by the early scribes. Therefore it cannot be, as it stands, the literal word of God, as some people claim.
A frequently misquoted verse is 1 Timothy 6:10, which says "THE LOVE OF money is a source of all evil." I.e., greed and jealousy are sources of bad things. Many people miss out the first three words.
Money is not, and cannot be, evil. It is merely one of the most recognised forms of exchange. Anything else could be a form of exchange.
GOD'S NAMES
Someone once told me that Allah is a false, pagan god. I was a little stunned at the ignorance expressed in this statement. A finger is not called a finger in other languages (it is matihao in Maori), and nor is God called God in other languages. The one supreme diety which, in English, we call God has as many names as there are languages — there is no difference in who is being referred to.
UNDERSTANDING WHAT WE SEE
In reading old texts it is important to consider the world view and knowledge of the original writer. For instance, in biblical times heaven was considered to exist in the sky, just beyond the clouds. Anything that came from the sky came from God or heaven. When the Romans spoke about "the whole world" they meant the Roman world, not the entire planet.
When someone sees something they can't understand, they describe it with words they understand, but are inadequate for describing what they see. Some examples of this are: "Fire" for artificial light "Thunder stick" for rifle "Iron horse" for locomotive "Flying chariot" for aerial craft "Flying saucer" for aerial craft "Bang bang whirly bird him come God" for helicopter
Imagine the difficulty someone who lived a few centuries ago would have in describing most modern inventions such as stereo, television, aeroplanes, telephones, computers, stoves, elevators, holograms, and traffic lights.
A fascinating example of an intelligent man trying to describe something that perhaps only we in the late 20th century might understand, can be found in Ezekiel 1:1-28. An eye-opening book on the subject is The Spaceships of Ezekiel by Josef F Blumrich, Corgi Books, London, 1974. This book is only available in paperback from second hand bookshops. Highly recommended reading for anyone who is interested in understanding the Bible.
THE MYSTERIES
The mysteries are an interesting subject which is often glossed over by Biblical commentators. There are the lesser mysteries which are often written about and revealed to ordinary people, and the deeper mysteries which are taught orally to those who are qualified to know. Jesus taught the deeper mysteries in private to his disciples.
The mysteries are mentioned a number of times in the Bible:
Matthew 13:11 It has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. [NKJV]
Mark 4:11 To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God, but to those who are outside, all things come in parables. [NKJV]
Mark 4:22-23 For there is nothing hidden except for the purpose of being exposed; nothing has become carefully concealed except for the purpose of coming into the open. Whoever has ears to listen, let him listen. [NWT]
Luke 8:10 To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that 'seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.' [NKJV]
Romans 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers... [NIV]
Romans 16:25 The revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past. [NIV]
1 Corinthians 2:7 We speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. [NIV]
1 Corinthians 4:1 Let a man so consider us as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. [NKJV]
1 Corinthians 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge... [NKJV]
1 Corinthians 14:2 In the spirit he speaks mysteries. [NKJV]
1 Corinthians 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery... [NIV]
Ephesians 1:9 He made known to us the mystery of his will. [NIV]
Ephesians 3:3 He made known to me the mystery. [NKJV]
Ephesians 3:4-5 You may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ, which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men. [NKJV]
Ephesians 3:9-10 To make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God. [NIV]
Ephesians 5:32 This is a great mystery. [NKJV]
Ephesians 6:19 I may... make known the mystery of the gospel. [NKJV]
Colossians 1:26 The mystery that has been hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the saints. [NIV]
Colossians 1:27 God has chosen to make known... the glorious riches of this mystery. [NIV]
Colossians 2:2 The knowledge of the mystery of God. [NKJV]
Colossians 4:3 We may proclaim the mystery. [NIV]
1 Timothy 3:9 Holding the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. [NKJV]
1 Timothy 3:16 Great is the mystery of godliness. [NKJV]
After about ten years of trying to understand these verses and related texts, I was no more enlightened. The mysteries remained a mystery. Although Jesus and Paul mention them often, nowhere do they explain directly and specifically what they are.
Frustration and dissatisfaction reigned, so I asked the minister of a nearby church, "What are the mysteries?" He replied, "Oh, the mystery is that Jesus rose from the dead." This answer didn't satisfy me either, so it was time to look elsewhere.
INITIATION A study of some of the mystery teachings — which are much more accessible now than in the past — indicated that there are five initiations which we all must undertake before we become masters of ourselves and fully enter the kingdom of God. Initiation is a process — the result of a gradual expansion of consciousness and demonstration of spiritual realities.
1 Corinthians 15:50-57 tells us what happens at the "last trumpet" — probably the fifth initiation. We become changed, incorruptible and immortal. Death is swallowed up in victory. "Where, O Death is your victory? Where O Death is your sting."
The January-February 1996 edition of Share International said, on page 19: "The Divine Mysteries are the mysteries of initiation... The ancient mysteries of initiation will become the conscious goal of a large section of humanity... People will know about initiation; it will become the goal of life for the majority of people."
Paul mentions initiation in Philippians 4:12, where the original Greek says "I have been initiated into secrets". However, except for the Jerusalem Bible, few interpretations of the Bible have translated this verse accurately. I was still not completely satisfied. If Jesus taught the mysteries and Paul was free to tell about them, surely someone somewhere recorded what Jesus taught. What DID He say?
Finally, in March 1996 I found The Secret Teachings of Jesus, four Gnostic Gospels trans-lated by Marvin W Meyer (Random House, New York, 1984).
On page 86, in the Secret Book of John 16:16, Jesus says:
I raised the sleeper, and sealed the sleeper in luminous water with five seals, that death might not prevail from that moment on.
The sleeper — spiritually undeveloped? Luminous water — illumination and self-control? Five seals — five initiations?
At long last, everything fell into place. Here were the words of Jesus confirming what the esoterisists had said all along.
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Post by Kiwi on Feb 1, 2009 3:48:05 GMT -4
Back to texts -- some Olde English that I found fascinating:
John 5:1-23 from Wycliffe’s Bible, 1388
To sort out the really hard stuff: ?? = Dunno if I got that bit right e = a or e ê = en ƒ = s ƒeiy = saith fforƒoye = forsoth (in truth or indeed) i = e, i or j j = g or j jatis = gates u = u or v v = u or v y = i, y or th yei = they yes = these yi = thy yingis = things
1 After yes yingis was a feeƒt day of iewis + ieƒus wente up to ieruƒalem. 2 fforƒoye at ieruƒalem is a ƒtondinge water of beeƒt yat in ebru is namyd bethƒayda, hauynge fyue litel jatis. 3 In yeƒe lay a grete multitude of languyƒchynge mê blýde croked due abidinge ye ƒtiringe of water. 4 fforƒoye ye anngel of ye lord after tyme came don into ye ƒtondinge water; + ye water was moued, and he yat firƒt came doun in to ye ciƒterne aft ye moouynge of ye water: was maide hoole of what euere ƒikneƒƒe he was holden (acere ?? ye forƒeid goƒpel). 5 fforƒoye ƒtun ?? man was hauynge yere eijte + yirty jeer in his ƒikeneƒƒe. 6 Whene ieƒus had ƒeen hym lyggynge + hadde knowê for now he hade muche tyme, he ƒeiy to him, wolte you be maad hool: 7 ye ƒike man anƒweride to him. Lord I have nat a man yat when ye water is trubled he ƒente me in to ye ciƒterne. fforƒoye ye while I come an oyer goy doun bifore me. 8 Iheƒus ƒeiy to him Ryƒe up take yi bedde + wandre 9 + anon ye man is maad hool: + toke up his bed + wandride: and ƒaboth was in yat day. 10 Ther fore ye iewis ƒeiden to hym yat was maad hool, It is ƒaboth, it is nat leful to yee forto take yi bed. 11 He anƒwerid to hem, He yat maad me hool, ƒeide to me Take yi bed + wandre. 12 Ther fore yei apiden ?? him: Who is yis man yat ƒeide to yee: take yi bed + wandre. 13 Soyely ?? he yat was maid hool wiƒte nat who it was. fforƒoye ihe bo wide him ?? fro ye cowuye ouey uede ?? or ƒett in ye place. 14 After ward ieƒus fonde him in ye temple: + ƒeide to him, Loo ye are maad hool, now nyl you ƒynne, leƒt eny ying worƒe bifalle to yee. 15 The sike ?? man wente + tolde to ye iewis: for it was ihn ?? yat maade him hool. 16 Therfore ye iewis perƒucuted ihn ?? for he dide yis yîg in ye ƒaboth. 17 fforƒoye ihƒis ?? anƒweride to hem. My fadir wurkiy til now: + I worcke. 18 yerfore yane ?? ye iewis ƒoujte more to ƒlea him for nat only he brake ye ƒaboth, but + he ƒeide his fadir god makîge him euen to god. 19 And ƒo ihe ?? anƒweride + siede to hem, Treuly treuly I seie to jou ye ƒone may nat of him ƒelf do eny ying: no but yt ying yat he ƒchal ƒee ye fadir doynge. What euere yingis ƒoyely ?? he doy: yes yingis + ye son alƒo doy. 20 fforƒoye ye fadir louey ye ƒone: + ƒhewiy to hym alle yingis yat he doy. And he ƒchal ƒchewe to him more workis yan yes, yat jee wondre. 21 fforƒoye as ye fadir reiƒiy dede men + quykeniy: ƒo + ye ƒone quykeniy whom he wole. 22 Soyly ?? neiyer ye fadir jugiy eny man: but hay jouen al ?? ye tome ?? to ye ƒone: 23 yat alle men honourye ye ƒone as yei honouriy ye fadir.
I like this bit in v14 for a motto: nyl you ƒynne, leƒt eny ying worƒe bifalle to yee
Matthew 1:1-9 from Tyndale’s Bible, 1525
The Goƒpell of .S. Mathew. The firƒt Chapter.
Tys is the boke off the generacion off Jheƒus chriƒt the ƒonne of David/ the ƒõne alƒo of Abraham. Abraham begat Iƒaac: Iƒaac begat Jacob: Jacob begat Judas and hys brethren: Judas begat phares and zara off thamar: Phares begat Eƒrom: Eƒrom begat Aram: Aram begat Aminadab: Aminadab begat Naaƒƒon: Naaƒƒon begat Salmon: Salmon begat Boos of Rachab: Boos begat Obed of Ruth: Obed begat Jeƒƒe: Jeƒƒe begat David the kynge: David the kynge begat Solomõ/ of her that was the wyfe of Ury: Solomon begat Roboam: Roboam begat Abia: Abia begat Aƒa: Aƒa begat Joƒaphat: Joƒaphat begat Joram: Joram begat Oƒias: Oƒias begat Joatham: Joatham begat Achas: Achas begat Ezechias:
John 1:1-14 from Tyndale’s Bible, 1525
Note: Verse numbers were not included in the original, but are shown here for reference. Letters with an arrowhead above (^) show that the following letter, n or m, is omitted, as in the original. The symbol ƒ is used to approximate the symbol used occasionally for "s".
The Goƒpell off Sancte Jhon. The fyrƒt Chapter.
1-5 In the begynnynge was that worde/ âd that worde was with god: and god was thatt worde. The ƒame was in the begynnynge wyth god. All thyngƒ were made by it/ and with out it/ was made noo thîge/ that made was. In it was lyfe/ And lyfe was the light of mê. And the light ƒhyneth î darcknes/ âd darcknes côprehêded it not.
6-10 There was a mâ ƒent from god/ whoƒe name was Jhon. The ƒame câ as a witnes/ to beare witnes of the light/ that all men through hî myght beleve. He was nott that light: but to beare witnes of the light. That was a true light/ which lighteneth all men that come îto the worlde. He was in the worlde/ âd the worlde by hî was made: and the worlde knewe hym not.
11-13 He câ îto his awne/ âd his receaved hî not. Vnto as meny as receaved hî/ gave he power to be the ƒônes of god: î that they beleved ô his name: which were borne not of bloude nor of the will of the fleƒƒhe/ nor yet of the will of men: but of god.
14 And that worde was made fleƒƒhe/ and dwelt amonge us/ and we ƒawe the glory off yt/ as the glory off the only begotten ƒonne off the father/ full off grace âd trueth.
Title page from Coverdale’s Bible, 1535
BIBLIA The Bible that is, the holy Scripture of the Olde and New Teftament faith- fully and truly tranflated out of Douche and Latyn in to Englifhe
M. D. XXXV.
S. Paul. II Teƒƒa. III. Praie for us, that the worde of God maie have fre paƒƒage, and be glorified.
S. Paul Col. III. Let the worde of Chriƒt dwell in you plen teouƒly in all wyƒdome.
Joƒue I. Let not the boke of this lawe departe out of thy mouth but exercyƒe thyƒelfe therin daye and nighte.
The 23rd Psalm (numbered 22, following the Vulgate enumeration), from Coverdale’s Bible, 1535
The XXII. A pƒalm of David
The LORDE is my ƒhepherde, I can wante nothinge. He fedeth me in a grene paƒture, âd ledeth me to a freƒh water. He quickeneth my ƒoule, & bringeth me forth in the waye of rightuouƒnes for his names ƒake. Though I ƒhulde walke now in the valley of the ƒhadowe of death, yet I feare no evell: for thou art with me: thy ƒtaffe & thy ƒhepechoke côforte me. Thou prepareƒt a table before me agaynƒt mine enemies: thou anoynteƒt my heade with oyle, & fylleƒt my cuppe full. Oh let thy lovynge kyndnes & mercy folowe me all the dayes off my life, that I maye dwell in the houƒe off the LORDE for euer.
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Post by Ginnie on Feb 1, 2009 14:48:51 GMT -4
Kiwi, you're going to make go through all my books! I must have about thirty books on the English language, word origins, phrases, lexicons etc. I found this an interesting passage in the introduction to Thayers Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament (1866 by Joseph Henry Thayer):
"The nature and use of the New Testament writings require that the lexicographer should not be hampered by a too rigid adherence to the rules of scientific lexicography. A student often wants to know not so much the inherent meaning of a word as the particular sense it bears in a given context or discussion: - or, to state the same truth from another point of view, the lexicographer often cannot assign a particular New Testament reference to one or another of the acknowledged significations of a word without indicating his exposition of the passage in which the reference occurs."
This is important. I would think in figuring out what Biblical manuscript is "more reliable" or "accurate" is one field of study - the understanding of what the words actually mean is another. I'm going to focus more on the former, because I don't want to have a Bible study thread here that goes too deep into interpreting the meanings of scripture.
As an example, I mentioned the meaning of "logos" previously. Perhaps it is not important how ancient Greeks or Jewish philosophers used the term. What matters is what John or other author meant when he wrote them. In the Greek bible the term "logos" is used many times, with many different intended meanings:
As respects speech - a word, i.e. a word which, uttered by the living voice, embodies a conception or idea -
What someone has said: Matthew 8:8 " Lord, I am not worthy to have you come under my roof: but only speak the word and my servant will be healed."
The act of speaking: "We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will tell you the same things by word of mouth" Acts xv.27
...you get the idea... So the point being that depending on how you used the word (no pun intended), it can have different meanings. So everything has to be taken into context - very carefully it would seem. That's why people spend a few years in Bible college, I guess.
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Post by Kiwi on Feb 1, 2009 20:10:49 GMT -4
Kiwi, you're going to make [me] go through all my books! That's what it's all about, innit?! If you can help with the bits I couldn't get, or disagree with the interpretation in the typescript of the Wycliffe Bible, please do. The 1970 Britannica, Volume 3, opposite page 582, has a photo of that bit of text and at a quick glance I first thought it was in Latin. The lack of punctuation and verse-numbering didn't help. But on looking closer I recognised a few English words so got into figuring it out. Using the few clues provided above, it's not hard to work out a fair bit: 1 After yes yingis was a feeƒt day of iewis + ieƒus wente up 1 After these things was a feast day of Jews and Jesus went up to ieruƒalem. 2 fforƒoye at ieruƒalem is a ƒtondinge water of to Jerusalem. 2 Forsoth at Jerusalem is a standing water of beeƒt yat in ebru is namyd bethƒayda, hauynge fyue litel jatis. beasts that in Hebrew is named Bethsaida, having five little gates. 3 In yeƒe lay a grete multitude of languyƒchynge mê blýde 3 In these lay a great multitude of languishing men, blind, croked due abidinge ye ƒtiringe of water. 4 fforƒoye ye anngel crooked, due[?] abiding the stirring of water. 4 Forsoth the angel of ye lord after tyme came don into ye ƒtondinge water; + ye of the Lord after time came down into the standing water and the water was moued, and he yat firƒt came doun in to ye ciƒterne water was moved, and he that first came down into the cistern aft ye moouynge of ye water: was maide hoole of what euere after the moving of the water was made whole of whatever ƒikneƒƒe he was holden (acere ?? ye forƒeid goƒpel). sickness he was holden (acere[?] the forsaid gospel). 5 fforƒoye ƒtun ?? man was hauynge yere eijte + yirty jeer in 5 Forsoth a certain[?] man was having there eight and thirty years in his ƒikeneƒƒe. 6 Whene ieƒus had ƒeen hym lyggynge + hadde his sickness. 6 When Jesus had seen him lying and had knowê for now he hade muche tyme, he ƒeiy to him, wolte you known for now he had much time, he said to him, "Would you be maad hool: be made whole?" Query, verse 3: Did women not count?
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Post by gillianren on Feb 1, 2009 20:44:46 GMT -4
In those days? Of course not!
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Post by Ginnie on Feb 1, 2009 21:10:16 GMT -4
1 Aftir these thingis ther was a feeste dai of Jewis, and Jhesus wente vp to Jerusalem. 2 And in Jerusalem is a waissynge place, that in Ebrew is named Bethsaida, and hath fyue porchis. 3 In these lay a greet multitude of sike men, blynde, crokid, and drie, abidynge the mouyng of the watir. 4 For the aungel `of the Lord cam doun certeyne tymes in to the watir, and the watir was moued; and he that first cam doun in to the sisterne, aftir the mouynge of the watir, was maad hool of what euer sijknesse he was holdun. 5 And a man was there, hauynge eiyte and thritti yeer in his sikenesse. 6 And whanne Jhesus hadde seyn hym liggynge, and hadde knowun, that he hadde myche tyme, he seith to hym, Wolt thou be maad hool? I found this in an online Wycliffe PDF wesley.nnu.edu/biblical_studies/wycliffe/wycbible-all.pdfJohn 5:1 From KJV: 1After this there was a feast of the Jews; and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 2Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep market a pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches. 3In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water. 4For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had. 5And a certain man was there, which had an infirmity thirty and eight years. 6When Jesus saw him lie, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he saith unto him, Wilt thou be made whole? The Wycliffe bible was written in Chaucer's time, so there should be good deal of resources about this period of Old English.
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Post by Kiwi on Feb 1, 2009 21:12:32 GMT -4
For the interested but lazy: 7 ye ƒike man anƒweride to him. Lord I have nat a man yat 7 The sick man answered to him, "Lord I have not a man that when ye water is trubled he ƒente me in to ye ciƒterne. when the water is troubled he sent me into the cistern. fforƒoye ye while I come an oyer goy doun bifore me. Forsoth the while I come another goes [goeth] down before me." 8 Iheƒus ƒeiy to him Ryƒe up take yi bedde + wandre 8 Jesus said [saith] to him, "Rise up, take your bed and wander." 9 + anon ye man is maad hool: + toke up his bed + wandride: 9 And anon the man is made whole and took up his bed and wandered. and ƒaboth was in yat day. And Sabbath was in that day. 10 Ther fore ye iewis ƒeiden to hym yat was maad hool, It is 10 Therefore the Jews said unto him that was made whole, "It is ƒaboth, it is nat leful to yee forto take yi bed. 11 He anƒwerid Sabbath. It is not lawful to you for to take your bed." 11 He answered to hem, He yat maad me hool, ƒeide to me Take yi bed + to them, "He that made me whole said to me, 'Take your bed and wandre. 12 Ther fore yei apiden ?? him: Who is yis man yat wander.'" 12 Therefore they apiden[?] asked[?] him, "Who is this man that ƒeide to yee: take yi bed + wandre. 13 Soyely ?? he yat was said to you, 'Take your bed and wander.'" 13 Soyely[?] he that was maid hool wiƒte nat who it was. fforƒoye ihe bo wide him ?? made whole wist not who it was. Forsoth Jesus[?] bo wide him[?] fro ye cowuye ouey uede ?? or ƒett in ye place. 14 After ward from the cowuye ouey uede[?] or set in the place. 14 Afterward ieƒus fonde him in ye temple: + ƒeide to him, Loo ye are maad Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, "Lo, you are made hool, now nyl you ƒynne, leƒt eny ying worƒe bifalle to yee. whole. Now nil you sin, lest anything worse befall to you." 15 The sike ?? man wente + tolde to ye iewis: for it was ihn ?? 15 The sick man went and told to the Jews, for it was Jesus[?] yat maade him hool. that made him whole. 16 Therfore ye iewis perƒucuted ihn ?? for he dide yis yîg in 16 Therfore the Jews persecuted Jesus[?] for he did this thing in ƒaboth. 17 fforƒoye ihƒis ?? anƒweride to hem. My fadir wurkiy til Sabbath. 17 Forsoth Jesus[?] answered to them, "My father works [worketh] til now: + I worcke. 18 yerfore yane ?? ye iewis ƒoujte more to ƒlea now and I work." 18 Therefore yane[?] the Jews sought more to slay him for nat only he brake ye ƒaboth, but + he ƒeide his fadir god him for not only he broke the Sabbath, but and he said 'his father God,' makîge him euen to god. 19 And ƒo ihe ?? anƒweride + siede to makîng him even to God. 19 And so Jesus[?] answered and said to hem, Treuly treuly I seie to jou ye ƒone may nat of him ƒelf do them, "Truly, truly I say to you the son may not of himself do eny ying: no but yt ying yat he ƒchal ƒee ye fadir doynge. anything. No, but that thing that he shall see the father doing. What euere yingis ƒoyely ?? he doy: yes yingis + ye son alƒo doy. Whatever things ƒoyely[?] he does [doeth], these things and the son also does. 20 fforƒoye ye fadir louey ye ƒone: + ƒhewiy to hym alle yingis 20 "Forsoth the father loves [loveth] the son and shows to him all things yat he doy. And he ƒchal ƒchewe to him more workis yan yes, that he does. And he shall show to him more works than these, yat jee wondre. 21 fforƒoye as ye fadir reiƒiy dede men + that you wonder. 21 Forsoth as the father raises dead men and quykeniy: ƒo + ye ƒone quykeniy whom he wole. 22 Soyly ?? quickens, so and the son quickens whom he will. 22 Soyly[?] neiyer ye fadir jugiy eny man: but hay jouen al ?? ye tome ?? neither the father judges any man, but has jouen al[?] the tome[?] to ye ƒone: 23 yat alle men honourye ye ƒone as yei honouriy to the son, 23 that all men honour the son as they honour ye fadir. the father." I wonder if "soyely" could be Old English for the word that evolved into "surely." "Sothelth" doesn't sound quite right. Forgive my iggerints, but do I recall correctly that "Ihn" is some sort of Latin shorthand for "Jesus"?
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Post by Kiwi on Feb 1, 2009 22:01:58 GMT -4
Query, verse 3: Did women not count? In those days? Of course not! Dumb question, huh?
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Post by Kiwi on Feb 1, 2009 22:15:37 GMT -4
Thanks, Ginnie. I'll take a look some evening when I can try about a half-hour download of 4 MB. I searched the internet when I first joined it, but could only find an expensive hardcopy of the Wycliffe Bible. The wording is a little different to that in my sample, so it's perhaps a later, revised edition. If you can help explain some of the odd words, I'd appreciate it. Doing the typescript was one of those enjoyable learning tasks that was good for the brain. Are there any other well-known English texts of the same era (1388)?
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Feb 2, 2009 0:36:31 GMT -4
You should try reading Anglo-Saxon, the real old English. Middle English is quite easy by comparison.
The most well-known text of the same era is The Canterbury Tales by Chaucer. They are quite legible, though you may need a gloss to catch some of the words. If you buy a copy of the Tales in Middle English it will likely include one.
EDIT: (Shakespeare and the King James Bible, by the way, are considered Modern English, despite their archaic patterns and vocabulary)
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Post by BertL on Feb 2, 2009 5:33:06 GMT -4
1 After yes yingis was a feeƒt day of iewis + ieƒus wente up All these ƒ digits in the text make me hear the whole script being read by Biggus Dickus.
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Post by Kiwi on Feb 2, 2009 7:00:20 GMT -4
Getting off topic, BertL, but still oldish texts. You might be interested to know I taught myself to read and understand a bit of 1642-43 Dutch. I wanted to know exactly what Abel Tasman said about his discovery of New Zealand. You probably wouldn't understand me if I read some to you -- I just learnt to say the words phonetically, so they wouldn't sound like Dutch of any era. Here's my attempt -- you'll see I probably don't use sijn/zijn properly and need help with it. Don't be too horrified! At least I made one discovery that other historians hadn't because they didn't investigate the original text, and some compounded the errors made by others. One interpreter said coelte meant gale, instead of breeze. 13 December 1642 Adij 13en Do bevonden breete 42 Graden 10 minuten On 13th Ditto observed latitude 42 Degrees 10 minutes langhte 188 graden 28 minuten, cours behouden oost ten longitude 188 degrees 28 minutes, course kept east by noorden en geseijlt 36 mijlen, de wint Zuijt=Zuijt=west, dat north and sailed 36 miles, the wind South-Southwest, that met een topseijls coelte, Tegens denmiddach Zagen een groot with a topsails breeze, Towards noon Saw a large hooch verheven landt, hadden het Zuijt=oost van ons ontrent 15 high elevated land, had it Southeast of us about 15 mijlen, deden onsen cours Zuijt=oost aen, recht naer het landt, miles, did our course Southeast on, right for the land, schooten een schoot ende lieten naer middach de witte shot a shot and had after noon the white vlagge waijen, waer=op d` overheden vande Zeehaen aen ons flag flutter, whereupon the officers of=the Zeehaan on our boort gecomen sijn, als wanneer met den ander ship came to=be, as when with the other rezolveerden gemelte landt, soo haest Immer mogelijck aen te resolved said land, so haste Ever possible on to doen, Zulex alles om redenen als de resoluijtie van dato do, Such all for reasons as the resolution of date dezer breeder explaneert. this at=length explains. Savonts vonden geraden en gelasten onse stuerluijden In=the=evening found advisable and instructed our steersmen soo lange het stijl blijft dat sijden Zuijtoosten cours so long the still remains that side Southeast course behouden, maer bij wacheringh van coelte, recht oost aen=gaen maintain, but with freshening of breeze, direct east go=on Zullen, op=dat=niet inde wal geraechen ende alle ongelucken Shall, lest in=the coast arrive and all accidents soo veel doenlijck is voorcomen mochten want naer onse as much practicable is prevent might, for in we sustinue `t landt van desen cant niet aen te doen Zoude sustain the land from this side not on to do Should, wesen dat door de groote openbare Zee welcke aldaer met being that for the great open Sea which there with groote holle baren en dijninge op aen compt schieten great hollow waves and swells up on come shooting ofte ten=ware datter eenige beslooten baijen aen desen or unless that any land-locked bays on these cant waren, In d` eertse wacht vier glasen uijt Zijnde side were. In the first watch four glasses out Being stelden onsen cours recht oost, miswijsinge 7 Graden 30 set our course due east, variation 7 Degrees 30 minuten noortoosteringh. minutes northeasterly. Traps for the unwary: The miles quoted are Dutch or Snellius miles. One Snellius mile = 4 nautical miles, 4.606212 statute miles, or 7.412995 kilometres. (Oi! What's wrong with accuracy to six decimal places? It's better to have it and not want it, than want it and not have it.) Ginnie, you'd probably enjoy the 30 A3 photocopy pages I have of the journal. It's not Tasman's original, which seems to have gone the same way as the original Apollo 11 EVA videotape, but two copies were made by copyists in about 1643. The copy I have is believed to be the most accurate and is in beautiful handwriting with magnificent flourishes. The other copyist was pretty sloppy, seemed to have no real interest in sailing, and made the classic mistake of copying to a particular word, then restarting from the next occurance of the same word and missing everything in between.
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