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Post by laurel on Aug 18, 2010 15:16:28 GMT -4
I wonder if Rodin even knows what a core sample is FTR I have followed junior miner exploratory results from drilling. Got by analysing cores. Okay. So are you going to answer Captain Swoop's question about where the Apollo core samples came from?
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Post by echnaton on Aug 18, 2010 16:02:26 GMT -4
Let's say they were looking for something that could pass as Moon rocks. Point has been made that not so many have been found since, yet 800 lbs were gathered there according to Hoax Believers (BTW I am a Hoax proponent - there is a difference). Is that a dealbreaker? Well no. What if - the team collected a bunch of meteorites using some kind of radar* finding system so as to be able to be very efficient in collection. Then they return to base and analyse all of them. A certain % are of the same family. These are designated 'Lunar' - type. No matter their true origin. These are manipulated into rocks and cores etc, bombarded with whatever isotopes of elements that will be used to date them, and given a sheen by irradiation @ Lawrence Livermore or similar. Later Antarctic explorers would find similar rocks, compare them with 'Moon' rocks and designate them 'Lunar'. The longer this thread goes on the wilder the arguments get. What you are saying here is that geologist don't know what they are doing, in that they cannot differentiate between man made processing and natural development. It is not that the rocks have to be like some Antarctic meteorites, it is that they have to have characteristics of rocks formed in 1/6 the gravity and exposed to space. It would take processing to make rocks exhibit theses characteristics, processing that would not be perfect and leave a detectable trail of work and handling. Not only is this preposterous but you have now introduced an enormous number of players in this vast conspiracy. In this case scientist, engineers and technicians that would do the work to "convert" the rocks. Theses same people, after working on this secret project would need to stay completer unaware of the properties of the rocks that are supposed to have come back from the moon. If you propose a grand conspiracy, anything can be argued to be true. However a grand conspiracy is just one more thing to be proven in the real search for truth. In this case your search is leading you astray.
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Post by LunarOrbit on Aug 19, 2010 0:05:20 GMT -4
...according to Hoax Believers (BTW I am a Hoax proponent - there is a difference). A proponent is someone who is an advocate for a particular belief. If you aren't a "believer" of the hoax theory why would you be a proponent for it? I'm not saying someone can't be a proponent for something they don't believe, but usually they have a reason for doing so. For example, I am not sure Bart Sibrel actually believes the moon landings were faked, but he has a reason for saying he does: making money.
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Post by PhantomWolf on Aug 19, 2010 1:21:23 GMT -4
Yes. Nothing at all has soft landed on the Moon (note this is a theory I am proposing not a belief) So the LRRR, both US and Soviet, are hoaxes too? Funny thing, I have a colleague who was quite literally on the front lines of the Cold War, he spent quite a bit of the 1980's stationed in the Soviet side of Berlin with the British Army's BRIXMIS Program acting as an observer in East Germany, right up until 1990 when it disbanded. I told him you thought the Cold War was a hoax and never happened, and he burst into laughter and wanted to know how on earth any sane person could think that. Even if true, are you aware that in 1944 the USA and the USSR were allies? It didn't start to go to custard until 1947, three years later.
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Post by Apollo Gnomon on Aug 19, 2010 2:27:15 GMT -4
I take the "proponent" vs. "believer" distinction to mean that Rodin is more willing to "learn" than other "hoax believers."
This is, of course, putting words in his mouth. Perhaps Rodin can explain the difference.
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Post by blackstar on Aug 19, 2010 4:48:22 GMT -4
I take the "proponent" vs. "believer" distinction to mean that Rodin is more willing to "learn" than other "hoax believers." This is, of course, putting words in his mouth. Perhaps Rodin can explain the difference. That may be what he intends to say but frankly based on his postings I've seen little evidence of it. Face it when someone goes into 'the Cold War was a hoax' territory they have to be a hard core HB.
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Post by ka9q on Aug 19, 2010 6:26:52 GMT -4
Funny thing, I have a colleague who was quite literally on the front lines of the Cold War, he spent quite a bit of the 1980's stationed in the Soviet side of Berlin with the British Army's BRIXMIS Program acting as an observer in East Germany, right up until 1990 when it disbanded. I had never heard of BRIXMIS until this mention, so I went to read about it. Amazing what you can learn from discussions about Apollo hoax theories! It's just that none of what you learn ever seems to come from the conspiracy theorists themselves...
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Post by captain swoop on Aug 19, 2010 10:57:31 GMT -4
How does a list of material and equipment sent to Russia in WW2 show that Eisenhower sanctioned 'shipments of materials to build the atom bomb to Stalin during the Second World War'? He was Supreme Commander of the Allied forces in Europe in WW2, surely it would have been the President who would have sanctioned it? Everything on your list is the stuff you wuld expect to send to help the industry of an ally at war. It's all standard engineering stuff including the Uranium, it has uses other than atomic weapons and you need a heck of a lot more than a few pounds of it to produce one, plus it has to be enriched etc, but you already know that. It is known how the Soviets got their first bomb, they had Spies at Los Alamos that helped them.
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Post by captain swoop on Aug 19, 2010 11:12:17 GMT -4
Funny thing, I have a colleague who was quite literally on the front lines of the Cold War, he spent quite a bit of the 1980's stationed in the Soviet side of Berlin with the British Army's BRIXMIS Program acting as an observer in East Germany, right up until 1990 when it disbanded. I had never heard of BRIXMIS until this mention, so I went to read about it. Amazing what you can learn from discussions about Apollo hoax theories! It's just that none of what you learn ever seems to come from the conspiracy theorists themselves... I was in the RN in the 80s, I participated first hand in the Cold War on AS patrols in the North Atlantic. Several times we came face to face with Soviet ships.
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Post by gillianren on Aug 19, 2010 12:33:36 GMT -4
I resent the idea that being young makes you less likely to believe in Apollo. I do, however, think that being young makes you underestimate the Cold War. Most of the people I've talked to who don't get what there was to be afraid of don't, let's face it, remember being afraid. My world history teacher taught the Cold War in part by telling us how many nuclear missiles were aimed within about a ten-mile range of my high school. I was so close to JPL that they judged my junior high's science fair projects.
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raven
Jupiter
That ain't Earth, kiddies.
Posts: 509
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Post by raven on Aug 19, 2010 12:58:04 GMT -4
I resent the idea that being young makes you less likely to believe in Apollo. I do, however, think that being young makes you underestimate the Cold War. Most of the people I've talked to who don't get what there was to be afraid of don't, let's face it, remember being afraid. My world history teacher taught the Cold War in part by telling us how many nuclear missiles were aimed within about a ten-mile range of my high school. I was so close to JPL that they judged my junior high's science fair projects. I was technically born before the Cold War ended and have memories before that day. The only way it really affected me personally was when a globe my family had just bought weeks before became obsolete. I remember being heartily amused by that. I was 4. What started my interest in space travel was the wonderful articles on spacecraft in the set of children's encyclopaedias we had at home. Realistic, they were still far in advanced of what we had on Earth. I remember legions of astronauts putting together a simply enormous space station, panel by panel. I remember bases on the moon. I was disappointed when I figured out it wasn't real.
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Post by blackstar on Aug 19, 2010 13:14:49 GMT -4
I had never heard of BRIXMIS until this mention, so I went to read about it. Amazing what you can learn from discussions about Apollo hoax theories! It's just that none of what you learn ever seems to come from the conspiracy theorists themselves... I was in the RN in the 80s, I participated first hand in the Cold War on AS patrols in the North Atlantic. Several times we came face to face with Soviet ships. That's the problem with the idea of the Cold War as a phony war, it only works if everyone is in the know, otherwise it could go hot because those on the frontlines are doing their jobs for real. And yet if everyone is in the know how could you keep it a secret? It's a paradox that never seems to bother HB's.
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Post by captain swoop on Aug 21, 2010 19:59:40 GMT -4
I was in the RN in the 80s, I participated first hand in the Cold War on AS patrols in the North Atlantic. Several times we came face to face with Soviet ships. That's the problem with the idea of the Cold War as a phony war, it only works if everyone is in the know, otherwise it could go hot because those on the frontlines are doing their jobs for real. And yet if everyone is in the know how could you keep it a secret? It's a paradox that never seems to bother HB's. Quite right, NATO tracked all the Russian Subs that came intothe Atlantic or Pacific. We had Nuclear Depth Charges (Special Weapons) aboard (or did we wink, wink) ready to drop from our helicoptere onto them, Limbo AS Mortars ready to rain down a trio of depth charges, Guided torpedos in the tubes all ready tofire.
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Post by rodin on Sept 9, 2010 12:16:06 GMT -4
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Post by kallewirsch on Sept 9, 2010 12:29:43 GMT -4
lots and lots of information Sorry Sir. You have no idea what you are talking about. First of all and most important: The cold war did not begin until WWII has ended. Which happend, as we all know, in 1945. So it is completely uninteresting which and what goods have been shipped in the years before 1946 from the US to the USSR. Second but not less important: There is not a single date, where one can say: This is the day, the cold war started. So while there may have been some goods shipped to the USSR in the years after WWII, this still is no sign that there was a 'hoax' going on. Calling the cold war a 'hoax' is an affront to all the people who died because of the cold war. Who died because the eastern block completely sealed their borders. Who died because they demonstrated against the communist regime. You habe been to Berlin. Have you visted the Wall museum at Bernauer Strasse? If you did and you still say, that the cold war is a hoax, then you have not learned a single little bit by studying the original documents presented in that museum. As one famous austrian politician once said: Learn history! Edited for typos.
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