A challenge of percieved knowledge- Part 1

[macapple]

Dear all (a bit of fun)

We are all led to believe that the data we have stored in our heads to be true.Through education we are given detail, which we typically do not challenge and research in early life and therefore when the perceived world is challenged later on in life we are flabbergasted that our knowledge is flawed.

So to test this hypothesis i want to post a simple question, which i want you all to answer as accurately as you can. The resources of the internet, libraries and your noggin (brain) are at hand and i give you a week to sort it. I will post the answer on Friday.

I will then post another similar question so that your brain juices do not dry up.

Question : How many wifes did Henry the VIII have? (a hint - its not 6 )

[Ginnie]

I hope this is not another trick question...

I'm consulting "The Lives of the Kings and Queens of England " right now, and let me see..

On his deathbed, Henry's father advised him to marry Catherine of Aragon (23, dainty and graceful with fine eyes!) which he did. She said that "our time is spent in continual festival": they partied quite a bit.
THATS ONE.
Catherine bore him a son, Prince Henry but died after six weeks. She also had a daughter Mary.
Henry's mistress Bessie Blount did bear him a son Henry Fitzroy.
Henry considered his marriage to Catherine was not legal because he thought he 'had disobeyed Holy Writ by marrying his deceased brother's wife' and had been living in sin, despite what the Pope thought.
Long story short - Archbishop Cranmer declared Henry's first marriage 'null and void' and Henry married Ann Boleyn.
THATS TWO ...maybe
Anne bore Elizabeth, which didn't make Henry happy because he want s a son darn it! So he had Anne executed, saying he had been 'seduced by witchcraft' and she was accused of adultery. So she was tried after her five alleged lovers were found guilty and she was executed on May 19, 1536.
This left the door open for him to marry Jane Seymour. She died giving birth to Edward.
THATS THREE
Henry married Anne of Cleves in January, 1540. Although her portrait by Holbein was flattering, in real life she wasn't beautiful and she spoke no English. I don't know why Henry didn't check her out a little bit more first! The marriage was never consummated and Cromwell secured a divorce.
THATS FOUR?
in between this a Catholic reaction was in progress and some persecution of Anabaptists (today Amish and Mennonites) began, among other things.
Cromwell ended up condemned for treasonable heresy. He had never attempted to procure royal divorce because Henry wanted to marry Catherine Howard, the niece of Cromwell's enemy Norfolk.
Geez, this stuff reads like a historical romance novel And I'm not even writing down 99.99 % of it.
So Henry married beautiful Catherine, but she fooled around with Francis Dereham and Thomas Culpeper. Henry wanted to cut off her head with his own sword, but in the end she was executed properly on February 13, 1542.
Henry felt sorry for himself, saying he 'regretted his ill luck in meeting with ill conditioned wives'. Sure, Henry.
THATS FIVE
The next year he married Catherine Parr - who had already buried two husbands. She was probably more nurse than mother - Henry suffered from an ulcerous leg after falling from a horse years earlier.
THATS SIX

So the answer is SIX

BTW: In doing this I looked up the lyrics to that Herman Hermit's song, "I'm Henry the Eighth I am". I don't listen to lyrics much, and always thought the song was about the KING. But it's not, Henry in the song is the eight husband of 'the widow next door'. You learn something new every day!
I'm Henry the eighth I am
Henry the eighth I am, I am
I got married to the widow next door
She's been married seven times before
And every one was an Henry (Henry)
She wouldn't have a Willy or a Sam (no Sam)
I'm her eighth old man, I'm Henry
Henry the eighth I am

EDIT:
I've read a few 'histories' of the English kings and queens over the years and found it more interesting than the best suspense novel. The goings on at the court, the affairs, illegitimate kids, backstabbing, executions , wars fought, squabbles with parliament and sometimes funny episodes flesh out to a fascinating read.
My favourite figure, Edward the Black Prince,
Least Favourite: Edward I - 'long shanks'.
Worst King: Edward son, Edward II. Though I'm glad because then Scotland beat him up and was free . FREEDOM!
All the Queens though were strong for sure, stubborn and determined. You could even say that about our Queen today.
Needless to day, since I have an Irish background, I have very strong mixed feelings about the Monarchy...

edit: Only six wives. I screwed up in my count originally.
also see:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wives_of_Henry_VIII

[Ginnie]

Okay, how come you don't say six. Is it because the first marriage doesn't count?
Is it because of this:
Some may dub these as misleading doggerel, and that Henry was never technically divorced from any of his wives, rather that his marriages to them were annulled. Likewise four marriages—not two—"ended" in annulments, one could argue according to the technicalities of annulment, Catherine of Aragon, Anne Boleyn, Anne of Cleves, and Catherine Howard were never his wives at all.

But these issues aside, it is six. I guess you could argue about annulment, legal divorce, non-Papal recognition et al.

Okay, macapple, I have one for you:.
When he died, what was Lawrence of Arabia's name, and why?

[nomuse]

How about one?

At least by the definitions of the Church of England, he was only married serially......

[Al Johnston]

This came up on the TV "Quiz" show QI, a new series of which has recently started on the BBC. I put quiz in quotes because the questions put by Stephen Fry are notoriously impossible to answer correctly, so contestants are given points for being Quite Interesting (they lose points for merely repeating conventional wisdom, so it is not uncommon for everyone to finish with a negative score). Answers have changed between series (eg how many moons does Earth have?) as new information comes to light, and the show was notably in advance of the IAU in declaring that Pluto was no longer a planet.

Anyhow, I believe the answer the show came up with was two, although I'd have to dig out & re-watch my recording to be sure. From what I recall, the marriage to Catherine of Aragon was legally deemed not to have occurred in order for him to marry Anne Boleyn. She was executed for treason, so that marriage counts, the others were invalidated on some grounds or other until Katherine Parr (IIRC) who was his wife when he died.

edit to fix tag

[macapple]

Ok ill give you the answer, and yes its a bit of trick question. Ginnie & Al got the priciple and numbers right.

Note: Annulment is a legal procedure for declaring a marriage null and void. Unlike divorce, it is retroactive: an annulled marriage is considered never to have existed.

Its well know that he had been married 6 times, however post death Henry actually had 2 legal wives, or 4 if your Catholic.

1. Catherine of Aragon. The marriage was made invalid by Henry as top man in the Church of England and stated that a man could not marry /sleep with the widow of his brother.

2. Anne Bolin married Henry while he was still married to Cath of Aragon see above. Henry annulled the marriage with Anne B just before he had her executed for witchcraft.

3. Jane Seymor Died giving birth. - So one legal Marriage notched up

4. Anne of Cleaves never consummated the marriage, therefore it is grounds for Annulment (even today!!) . Anne was already to marry Francis duke of Lorraine but married Henry instead. Being betrothed was as good as being married then and the catholic church said the marriage was not valid.

5 Catherine Howard was alleged to have had affairs with men before and after marrying the King. Henry passed a law which made its a treasonable act if a queen committed adultery. Therefore another annulment and a parting of the head.

6. Catherine Parr outlived the over weight king and there fore comes in as the second legal wife.

[macapple]

ginniegatrit said:

Okay, macapple, I have one for you:.
When he died, what was Lawrence of Arabia's name, and why?

Oooo a good one..

Erm first stab.

Lawrence of Arabia used many names during his time.

He was the illegitimate son of Sir Thomas Chapman

It is known that he was called Thomas Edwards in his earlier days and adopted the random Lawrence family name (date unkown).
He used aliases as well such as John Hume Ross in the RAF, Thomas Edward Shaw in the Army which he used as an Alias until his death.

His gravestone is marked with T.E. Lawrence.

Not sure which one is right?

[Ginnie]

T.E. had changed his name by deed poll to Shaw.
I suspect it was because he had maintained a correspondence with G.B's wife Charlotte for many years and Shaw seemed as good as name as any.
Lawrence of course wanted to escape from his L of A legend mainly because of guilt I suppose. He realized the whole Arab freedom movement supported by the British and French was a sham. Because of the Sykes-Picot agreement signed between the two countries, Arabia was never intended to be allowed to be an independent nation. Lawrence knew this, but kept the secret from Prince Faisel, hoping that if the Arabs fought the Turks and were able to regain their territories that Britain and France would have no choice but to give up their plan.
He felt bitter especially after the Treaty of Versailles negotiations and atterwards, retreated to the RAF under the name John Hume Ross. He was found out and enlisted in the Tank Corps under his new name T.E. Shaw (read The Mint for his experiences there, a raw account of recruits in the Tank Corps, good stuff).
He was a brilliant scholar, solder and student of archeology. He even translated The Odyssey from origninal greek to English.
I highly recomend The Seven Pillars of Wisdom (not so much its abridgement Revolt in the Desert), also The Mint (of which I'm lucky to have a first edition) . He has a superb poetic writing style, very good indeed.
I could go on and on about him but I'll stop.

[gillianren]

If you're going to talk about Henry's wives (and I, for one, count six and to heck with what any legal authority claims, given that he declared both his daughters legitimate before his death, a legal impossibility), please spell their names properly. Anne spelled it "Boleyn"; Jane spelled it "Seymour"; the country was spelled "Cleves." I'm less fussy about Katherine with a "k" versus Catherine with a "c," because I've seen all three names spelled both ways.

[macapple]

gillianren said:

If you're going to talk about Henry's wives (and I, for one, count six and to heck with what any legal authority claims, given that he declared both his daughters legitimate before his death, a legal impossibility), please spell their names properly. Anne spelled it "Boleyn"; Jane spelled it "Seymour"; the country was spelled "Cleves." I'm less fussy about Katherine with a "k" versus Catherine with a "c," because I've seen all three names spelled both ways.

I'll take more time to proof read, I didn't know I was being checked for spelling

[macapple]

Ok new question...

What was the first invention to break the sound barrier?

[LunarOrbit]

A whip?

[Ginnie]

macapple, gillianren checks everybody's spelling except for Bill Thompson's. Grammar also.

[Ginnie]

Just off the top of my head:
A rocket sled?

[Czero 101]

I'm pretty sure LO was right with guessing the whip...