Rocks from the Moon

PeterB

Posts: 1,119

Rocks from the Moon Jul 27, 2005 19:36:00 GMT -4

Post by PeterB on Jul 27, 2005 19:36:00 GMT -4

G'day Margamatix

I was wondering if you might care to turn your mind to the Moon rocks. There were about 380 kilograms of Moon rocks produced out of Apollo, and I was wondering if you had any thoughts about how they came to be here.

You might like to know that:

1. They can’t be Earth rocks;
2. They aren’t Moon rocks collected on the Earth; and
3. They aren’t Moon rocks collected by unmanned missions.

How do we know this?

1. The Apollo rocks contain no water. They are completely dry. This is completely unlike any rock on Earth. There’s no way you can take an Earth rock and chuck it in an oven to bake the water out of it, as the water is chemically bound within the crystals which make up the rock. This was unexpected before the first Moon rocks were examined by scientists.
2. The Apollo rocks contain evidence in their structure of having been formed in a low-gravity vacuum, which has never existed on Earth. This was expected by scientists, but there’s no way it could be recreated in a laboratory.
3. The Apollo rocks are covered with minute craters called zap pits. These are the result of the rocks being bombarded over time by interplanetary dust, hitting them at tens of kilometres per second. This effect can’t be recreated in a laboratory.
4. Moon rocks have been recovered in Antarctica, but they’re lunar meteorites. Their outer surfaces have been melted from the heat of passing through the Earth’s atmosphere, and they look nothing like the Apollo rocks.
5. The Soviets recovered about 300 grams of lunar material on three unmanned sample return missions. That’s less than one-thousandth of the material in the Apollo rocks. The Soviet missions recovered handfuls of pebbles and soil in the immediate vicinity of the spacecraft. By contrast, the Apollo rocks include core samples more than a metre long, fragile clods of compressed soil and individual rocks weighing up to 10 kilograms. That variety and amount of material can’t be collected by robot missions.
6. The Apollo rocks and the Soviet lunar material have both been examined by scientists from around the world, often by scientists from countries which are politically hostile to the suppliers. No scientist who has examined this material has ever suggested that there was any faked material. In fact, it’s helped scientists develop a new theory for the origin of the Moon, which has been tested against other evidence.

Therefore, the most logical explanation is that Apollo astronauts walked on the Moon and collected a range of samples on the various missions.

If you have any alternate theories which don’t contradict the evidence above, I’d like to know.

Cheers

PhantomWolf

Posts: 4,620

Rocks from the Moon Jul 27, 2005 22:19:48 GMT -4

Post by PhantomWolf on Jul 27, 2005 22:19:48 GMT -4

peterb said:

4. Moon rocks have been recovered in Antarctica, but they’re lunar meteorites. Their outer surfaces have been melted from the heat of passing through the Earth’s atmosphere, and they look nothing like the Apollo rocks.

Actually they have been discovered in other places as well. Here's a great page on Lunites.

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah

"On two occasions, I have been asked, 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)

Kiwi

Posts: 1,064

Rocks from the Moon Jul 28, 2005 7:20:49 GMT -4

Post by Kiwi on Jul 28, 2005 7:20:49 GMT -4

6. The Apollo rocks and the Soviet lunar material have both been examined by scientists from around the world, often by scientists from countries which are politically hostile to the suppliers. No scientist who has examined this material has ever suggested that there was any faked material. In fact, it’s helped scientists develop a new theory for the origin of the Moon, which has been tested against other evidence.

Excellent post, Peterb.

Those of us who have hung around here and the BABB for a while have heard the ridiculous claims of stunningly ignorant hoax-believers who claim that the rocks were simply "cooked up" by Nasa from earth rocks in some sort of magical oven.

The next time someone tells us that the moon rocks were faked and the scientists who investigated them were hoodwinked by Nasa, perhaps he/she could be referred to the following list of well over 100 investigators and asked to tell us exactly which of them were incompetent.

The hoax-believer could get a copy of the December 1969 National Geographic and read a preliminary article about the Apollo 11 rocks on pages 788-791. Worthy of note there is a comment from Dr S. Ross Taylor of the Australian National University (who is unlikely to be a Nasa conspirator): "The moon rocks are different enough from earth rocks to keep us busy for years."

The September 1973 National Geographic issue has, on page 322, a photograph of one of the investigators listed below, Dr David S. McKay, his assistant Dr Uel S. Clanton, and electron microscope photos taken by them.

The list is from the Apollo 11 Press Kit, pages 220-241, and only includes those investigators who had put their names forward as at July 1969. There were more.

PRINCIPAL INVESTIGATORS AND INVESTIGATIONS OF LUNAR SURFACE SAMPLES

Adams, J. B. -- Co-Investigator: Jones, R. L
Caribbean Research Inst., St. Thomas, V. I.; NASA Manned Spacecraft Center Houston, Texas
Investigation: Visible and Near-Infrared Reflection Spectroscopy of Returned Lunar Sample at CRI & Lunar Receiving Lab. (LRL)

Adler, I. -- Co-Investigators: Walter, L. S., Goldstein, J. I., Philpotts, J. A., Lowman, P. D., French, B. M.
NASA Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Md.
Investigation: Elemental Analysis by Electron Microprobe

Agrell, S.O. -- Co-Investigator: Muir, I. O.
University Cambridge, England
Investigation: Broad Mineralogic Studies

Alvarez, L. W. -- Co-Investigator: Watt, R. D.
University of California, Berkeley, California
Investigation: Search for Magnetic Monopoles at LRL

Anders, E. -- Co-Investigators: Keays, R. R., Ganapathy, R., Jeffery, P. M.
University of Chicago, Chicago
Investigation: (a) Determine 14 Elements By Neutron Activation Analysis (b) Measure Cosmic Ray Induced Al26 Content

Anderson, O. -- Co-Investigators: Soga, N., Kumazawa, M.
Lamont Geol. Obs., Columbia Univ., Palisades, N.Y.
Investigation: Measure Sonic Velocity, Thermal Expansivity, Specific Heat, Dielectric Constant, and Index of Refraction

Arnold, J. R. -- Co-Investigators: Suess, H. E., Bhandari, N., Shedlovsky, J., Honda. M., Lal, D.
Univ. Calif., San Diego, La Jolla, Calif.
Investigation: Determine Cosmic Ray and Solar Particle Activation Effects

Arrhenius. G. O. -- Co-Investigators: Reid, A., Fitzgerald, R.
Univ. Calif., San Diego, La Jolla, Calif.
Investigation: Determine Microstructure Characteristics and Composition

Barghoorn, E. -- Co-Investigator: Philpott, D.
Harvard Univ., Cambridge, Mass.; NASA Ames Res. Center, Moffett Field, Calif.
Investigation: Electron Microscopy of Returned Lunar Organic Samples

Bastin, J. -- Co-Investigator: Clegg, P. E.
Queen Mary College, London, England
Investigation: Measure Electric Properties and Thermal Conductivity

Bell, P. M. -- Co-Investigator: Finger, L.
Carnegie Institution of Washington, Washington D. C.
Investigation: Determine Crystal Structure of Separated Mineral Phases

Biemann, K.
Mass. Inst. Tech., Cambridge, Mass.
Investigation: Mass Spectrometric Analyses for Organic Matter in Lunar Crust

Birkebak, R. C. -- Co-Investigators: Cremers, C. J., Dawson, J. P.
Univ. Kentucky, Lexington, Ky.
Investigation: Measure Thermal Radiative Features and Thermal Conductivity

Bowie, S. H. U. -- Co-Investigators: Horne, J. E. T., Snelling, N. J.
Inst. of Geol. Sciences, London England
Investigation: Determinative Mineralogy for Opaque Materials by Electron Microprobe, Distribution of Radioactive Material by Auto-Radiograph, Analysis for Pb, U and Th Isotopes by Mass Spectrometry

Brown, G. M. -- Co-Investigators: Emeleus, C. H., Holland, J. G., Phillips, R.
Univ. Durham, Durham, England
Investigation: Petrologic Analysis by Standard Methods; Electron Probe Analysis Reflected Light Microscopy

Burlingame, A. L. -- Co-Investigator: Biemann, K.
Univ. of Calif., Berkeley, Calif.; Mass. Inst. Tech., Cambridge, Mass.
Investigation: Organic Mass Spectrometer Development for LRL

Calvin, M. -- Co-Investigator: Burlingame, A. L.
Univ. of Calif., Berkeley, Calif.
Investigation: Study of Lunar Samples by Mass Spectrometry (Computerized) and Other Analytical Instrumentation

Cameron, E. N.
Univ. Wisconsin, Madison, Wis.
Investigation: Determine Structure, Composition Texture, and Phases of Opaque Material by Many Methods

Carter, N. L.
Yale Univ., New Haven, Conn.
Investigation: Determine Effects of Shock on Lunar Materials Using Optical X-Ray, and Electron Microscopic Methods

Chao, E. C. T. -- Co-Investigators: James, O. B., Wilcox, R. E., Minkin, J. A.
U.S. Geol. Survey, Washington, D. C.
Investigation: Shocked Mineral Studies by Optical, X-Ray and Microprobe Techniques

Clayton, R. N.
Univ. Chicago
Investigation: Determine Stable Isotope of Oxygen

Cloud, P. -- Co-Investigator: Philpott, D.
Univ. Calif., Los Angeles; NASA Ames Res. Ctr.
Investigation: Electron Microscopy of Returned Lunar Organic Samples

Collett, L. S. -- Co-Investigator: Becker, A.
Geol. Survey, Canada
Investigation: Determine Electrical Conductivity

Compston, W. C. -- Co-Investigators: Arriens, P. A., Chappell, B. W., Vernon, M. J.
Australian Nat'l University, Canberra
Investigation: Sr and Sr Isotopes By X-Ray Fluorescence and Mass Spectrometry

Dalrymple, G. B. -- Co-Investigator: Doell, R. R
U.S. Geol. Survey, Menlo Park, Calif.
Investigation: Measure Natural & Induced Thermoluminescence to determine History and Environmental Features of Lunar Materials

Davis, R. -- Co-Investigator: Stoenner, R. W.
Brookhaven Nat. Lab., L.I., New York
Investigation: Determine Ar37, Ar39 Content

Doell, R. R. -- Co-Investigators: Gromme, C. S., Senftle, F.
U.S. Geol. Survey, Menlo Park, Calif.
Investigation: Measurement of Magnetic Properties at LRL and USGS Laboratories, Survey of Remnant Magnetism of Lunar Samples in Vacuum in the LRL

Douglas, J. A. V. -- Co-Investigators: Currie, K. L., Dence, M. R., Traill, R. J.
Geol. Survey of Canada, Ottawa, Canada
Investigation: Petrologic, Mineralogic and Textural Studies

Duke, M. B. -- Co-Investigator: Smith, R. L.
U.S. Geol. Survey, Washington, D. C.
Investigation: Determine Size Frequency Distribution, Physical Properties and Composition of Lunar Materials of Sub-100 Micron Grain Size

Edgington, J. A. -- Co-Investigator: Blair, I. M.
Queen Mary College, Univ. London; Atomic Energy Res. Establishment
Investigation: Measure Luminescent and Thermoluminescent Properties Under Proton (147 MEV) Bombardment

Eglinton, G. -- Co-Investigator: Lovelock, J. E.
Univ. Bristol, Bristol, England
Investigation: To Establish the Precise Nature of Organic Compounds in Lunar Material

Ehmann, W. D. -- Co-Investigator: Morgan, J. W.
Univ. Kentucky, Lexington, Ky.
Investigation: Analysis for Major Rock Forming Elements using 14 MEV Neutron Activation

Engel, A. E. -- Co-Investigator: Engel, A. C. J.
Univ. Calif., San Diego, La Jolla, Calif.
Investigation: Wet Chemical Analysis for Major Elements

Epstein, S. -- Co-Investigator: Taylor, H. P.
Cal. Inst. Tech., Pasadena, Calif.
Investigation: Determine Content of Stable Isotopes of O, C, H, and Si by Mass Spectrometry

Evans, H. T. -- Co-Investigators: Barton, P. B. Jr., Roseboom, E. H.
U.S. Geol. Survey, Washington, D. C.
Investigation: Crystal Structures of Sulfides and Related Minerals

Fields, P. R. -- Co-Investigators: Hess. D. C., Stevens, C.
Argonne Nat. Lab., Argonne, Ill.
Investigation: Measure by Mass Spectrometry the Isotopic Abundances of Heavy Elements

Fireman, E. L.
Smithsonian Inst., Astrophysical Obs., Cambridge, Mass.
(a) Measure the Ar37 and Ar39 Content by Mass Spectrometry (b) Determine Tritium Content by Low Level Counting Techniques

Fleischer, R. L. -- Co-Investigators: Hanneman, R. E., Kasper, J. S., Price, P. B., Walker, R. M.
General Electric, Schnectady, N. Y.; Washington Univ., St. Louis, Mo.
Investigation: (a) Measure Structural Defects in Lunar Materials Through Study of Optical, Electrical and Mechanical Properties (b) Determine the Effect of Cosmic Radiation on Lunar Samples by Study of Fossil Tracks Resulting from Charged Particles

Fox, S. -- Co-Investigators: Harada, K., Mueller, G.
Univ. Miami, Coral Gables, Fla
Investigation: Analysis of Organic Lunar Samples for ALPHA Amino Acids and Polymers Thereof

Fredriksson, K. -- Co-Investigator: Nelen, J.
Smithsonian Inst. Nat. Museum, Washington, D. C.
Investigation: Elemental Analysis by Electron Microprobe

Friedman, I. -- Co-Investigator: O'Neil, J. R.
U.S. Geol. Survey, Denver, Colo.
Investigation: Isotopic Composition of H, D, and Oxygen

Frondel, C. -- Co-Investigators: Klein, C., Ito, J.
Harvard Univ., Cambridge, Mass.
Investigation: Broad Studies of the Texture, composition, and Relationship of Minerals

Gast, P. W.
Lamont Geol. Obs., Columbia Univ., Palisades, N. Y.
Investigation: Determine Concentration of the Alkali, Alkaline Earth and Lanthanide Elements by Mass Spectrometry

Gay, P. -- Co-Investigators: Brown, M. G., McKie, D.
Univ. Cambridge, Cambridge, England
Investigation: X-Ray Crystallographic Studies

Geake, J. E. -- Co-Investigator: Garlick, G. F. J.
Univ. Manchester, Manchester, England
Investigation: Measure Fluorescence Emission and Other Excitation Spectra; Optical Polarization; X-Ray Fluorescence; Electron Spin Resonance; Neutron Activation Analysis

Geiss, J. -- Co-Investigators: Eberhardt, P., Grogler, N., Oeschger, H.
Univ. Berne, Berne, Switzerland
Investigation: Measure Rare Gas Content and Cosmic Ray Produced Tritium by Mass Spectrometry

Gold, T.
Cornell Univ., Ithaca, N. Y.
Investigation: Particle size Analysis, Photometric Studies of Radiation Effects from Several Types of Rays; Direct Measure of Radiative Properties; Dielectric Constant and Loss Tangent

Goles, G. G.
Univ. Oregon, Eugene, Ore.
Investigation: Elemental Abundances by Neutron Activation Analysis

Greenman, N. N. -- Co-Investigator: Cross, H. G.
McDonnell-Douglas Corp. Santa Monica, Calif.
Investigation: Determine the Luminescence Spectra and Efficiencies of Lunar Material and Compare with Mineral Composition

Grossman, J. J. -- Co-Investigators: Ryan, J. A., Mukherjee, N. R.
McDonnell-Douglas Corp., Santa Monica, Calif.
Investigation: Microphysical, Microchemical and Adhesive Characteristics of the Lunar Materials

Hafner, S. -- Co-Investigator: Virgo, D.
Univ. Chicago, Chicago, Ill.
Investigation: Using Mossbauer and NMR Techniques Measure the Oxidation State of Iron, Radiation Damage and Al, Na, Fe Energy State in Crystals

Halpern, B. -- Co-Investigator: Hodgson, G. W.
Stanford Univ., Palo Alto, Calif.
Investigation: Determine Terrestrial & Extra-terrestrial Porphyrins in Association with Amino Acid Compounds

Hapke, B. W. -- Co-Investigators: Cohen, A. J., Cassidy, W.
Univ. Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh, Pa.
Investigation: Determine Effects of Solar Wind on Lunar Material

Haskin, L. A.
Univ. Wisconsin, Madison, Wis.
Investigation: Determine Rare Earth Element Content by Neutron Activation Analysis

Helsley, C. E. -- Co-Investigators: Burek, P. J., Oetking, P.
Grad. Res. Center of the Southwest, Dallas, Texas
Investigation: Remanent Magnetism Studies

Helz, A. W. -- Co-Investigator: Annell, C. S.
U.S. Geol. Survey, Washington, D. C.
Investigation: Special Trace Elements by Emission Spectroscopy

Herr, W. -- Co-Investigators: Kaufhold. J., Skerra, B., Herpers, U.
Univ. Cologne, Cologne, Germany
Investigation: (a) Determine Mn53 Content by High Flux Neutron Bombardment (b) Determine Age of Lunar Materials Using Fission Track Method (c) Measure Thermoluminescence to Determine Effect of intrinsic Radioactive and Cosmic Ray Particles and Thermal History

Herzenberg, C. L.
Ill. Inst. Of Tech., Chicago
Investigation: Measure the Energy States of the Iron Bearing Minerals and Possible Effects of Cosmic Radiation

Hess, H. H. -- Co-Investigator: Otolara, G.
Princeton Univ., Princeton, N. J.
Investigation: Determine Pyroxene Content by X-Ray and Optical Methods

Heymann, D. -- Co-Investigators: Adam, J. A. A., Fryer, G. E.
Rice Univ., Houston, Texas
Investigation: Determine Rare Gases and Radioactive Isotopes by Mass Spectrometry

Hintenberger. H. -- Co-Investigators: Begemann, R., Schultz, L., Vilcsek, E., Voshage, H., Wanke, H., Wlotzka, A.
Max Planke Inst., Fur Chemie, Mainz, Germany
Investigation: (a) Abundance and isotopic Composition of Hydrogen (b) Measure Concentration and Isotopic Composition of Rare Gases (c) Isotopic Composition of Nitrogen

Hoering, T. -- Co-Investigator: Kaplan, I. R.
Carnegie Inst., D. C.; Univ. Calif., L. A.
Investigation: Analytical Lunar Sample Analyses for C13/C12 and D/H of Organic Matter

Hurley, P. M. -- Co-Investigator: Pinson, W. H., Jr.
Mass. Inst. Tech., Cambridge, Mass.
Investigation: Analyze for Rb, Sr, and their Isotopes

Jedwab, J.
Univ. Libre De Bruxelles, Brussels, Belgium
Investigation: Determine the Morphological, Optical and Petrographic Properties of Magnetite and its Chemical Composition by Electron Microprobe

Johnson, R. D.
NASA Ames Research Ctr.
Investigation: Analysis of Lunar Sample for Organic Carbon Behind the Barrier System of the LRL

Kaplan, I. R. -- Co-Investigators: Berger, R., Schopf, J. W.
Univ. Calif., Los Angeles, Calif.
Investigation: Ratios of Carbon Hydrogen, Oxygen, and Sulphur Isotope Ratios by Mass Spectrometry

Kanamori, H. -- Co-Investigators: Mizutani, H., Takeuchi, H.
Univ. Tokyo, Japan
Investigation: Determine Elastic Constants by Shear/Compressions/Wave Velocity

Keil, K. -- Co-Investigators: Bunch, T. E., Prinz, M., Snetsinger, K. G.
Univ. New Mexico, Albuquerque, N. M.
Investigation: Elemental Analysis and Mineral Phase Studies by Electron Microprobe

King, E. A. -- Co-Investigators: Morrison, D. A., Greenwood, W. R.
NASA Manned Spacecraft Center
Investigation: Non-Destructive Mineralogy & Petrology; Analysis of the Fine Size Fraction of Lunar Materials Including Vitreous Phases

Kohman, T. P. -- Co-Investigator: Tanner, J. T.
Carnegie Inst. of Tech., Pittsburgh, Pa.
Investigation: Determine isotopic Abundance of Pb, Sr, OS, T1, Nd, and Ag by Mass Spectrometry

Kuno, H. -- Co-Investigator: Kushiro, I.
Univ. Tokyo, Japan
Investigation: Petrographic Analysis for Mineral Identification and Chemical Composition

Larochelle, A. -- Co-Investigator: Schwarz, E. J.
Geol. Survey, Ottawa, Canada
Investigation: Thermomagnetic, Magnetic Susceptibility and Remanent Magnetism Studies

Lipsky, S. R. -- Co-Investigators: Horvath, C. G., McMurray, W. J.
Yale Univ., New Haven, Conn.
Investigation: Identification of Organic Compounds in Lunar Material by Means of Gas Chromatography -- Mass Spectrometry, NMR, High Speed Liquid Chromatography, and Variations on these techniques

Lovering J. F. -- Co-Investigators: Butterfield. D. (a), Kleeman, J. D. (b), Veizer, J. (b), Ware, N. G. (c)
Australian Nat'l Uni., Canberra, Australia
Investigation: (a) Neutron Activation for U, Th, K (b) Fission Track Analysis for U (c) Electron Microprobe Analysis for Elemental Composition

MacGregor, I. D. -- Co-Investigator: Carter, J. L.
Grad. Research Ctr., S.W. Dallas, Texas
Investigation: Petrographic Analysis by X-Ray Diffraction and Optical Methods

Manatt, S. L. -- Co-Investigators: Elleman, D. D., Vaughan, R. W., Chan, S. I.
NASA Jet Propulsion Lab., Pasadena, Calif.; Cal. Inst. Tech.
Investigation: Nuclear Radio Frequency Analysis Including NMR & ESR Analysis for Oxygen, Hydrogen, Water Content and other elements and their Chemical State

Mason, B. -- Co-Investigators: Jarosewich, B., Fredriksson, K., White, J. S.
Smithsonian Inst., Nat. Museum, Washington, D. C.
Investigation: Mineralogic investigations

Maxwell, J. A. -- Co-Investigators: Abbey, S., Champ, W. H.
Geol. Survey, Canada, Ottawa, Canada
Investigation: Wet Chemical, X-Ray Fluorescence and Emission Spectroscopy; Flame Photometry for Major/Minor Elements; Atomic Absorption Spectroscopy

McKay, D. S. -- Co-Investigators: Anderson. D. H., Greenwood, W. R., Morrison, D. A.
Manned Spacecraft Center
Investigation: Determine Morphology and Composition of Fine Particles Using Electron Microprobe and Scanning Electron Microscope. Analysis to be Undertaken After Quarantine and not within the LRL

Meinschein, W. G.
Indiana Univ., Bloomington, Ind.
Investigation: Determine the Alkane C15 To C30 Content By Gas Chromatographic and Mass Spectrometric Techniques

Moore, C.
Arizona State Univ., Temple, Ariz.
Investigation: Determine Total Concentration of Carbon and Nitrogen

Morrison, G. H.
Cornell Univ.
Investigation: Elemental Analysis Using Spark Source Mass Spectrometry

Muir, A. H., Jr.
North American Rockwell Corp., Science Center, Thousand Oaks, Calif.
Investigation: Conduct Mossbauer Effect and Spectroscopic Study of Iron-Bearing Mineral Separates

Murthy, V. R.
Univ. Minnesota, Minneapolis, Minn.
Investigation: Determine Rare-Earth Elemental and Low Abundance Isotopes of K, Ca, V and Cr Content by Neutron Activation

Nagata. T. -- Co-Investigators: Ozima. M., Ishikiwa, Y.
Univ. Tokyo, Japan
Investigation: Remanent Magnetism Studies

Nagy, B. -- Co-Investigator: Urey, H.
Univ. Calif., San Diego, La Jolla, Calif.
Investigation: The Presence or Absence of Lipids, Amino Acids, and "Polymer-Type" Organic Matter

Nash, D. B.
NASA Jet Propulsion Lab.
Investigation: Measure Luminescence, and Physical/Chemical Reaction of Lunar Material to Bombardment by 0.5 to 10 KeV Protons

O'Hara, M. J. -- Co-Investigator: Biggar, G. M.
Univ. Edinburgh, Scotland
Investigation: Hi-Pressure/Temperature Phase Studies, Determine Temperature of Crystallization of Minerals; Petrologic Studies

O'Kelley, G. D. -- Co-Investigators: Bell, P. R., Eldridge, J. S., Schonfeld, E., Richardson, K. A.
Oak Ridge Nat. Lab., Tennessee; MSC
Investigation: Develop the Equipment/Methods for LRL; Measure the K40, U, Th, and Cosmic Ray Induced Radionuclide Content

Oro, J. -- Co-Investigators: Zlatkis, A., Lovelock, J. E., Becker, R. S., Updegrove, W. S., Flory, D. A.
Univ. Houston, Houston, Texas; Manned Spacecraft Ctr.
A Comprehensive Study of the Carbonaceous and Organogenic Matter Present in Returned Lunar Samples with Combination of Gas Chromatographic and Mass Spectrometric Techniques

Oyama, V. I. -- Co-Investigators: Merek, E., Silverman, M. P.
NASA Ames Res. Ctr., Moffett Field, Calif.
Investigation: Isolation and Culture of Viable Organisms

Peck, L. C.
U.S. Geol. Survey, Denver, Colo.
Investigation: Standard Wet Chemical Analytical Techniques for Major Elements

Pepin, R. O. -- Co-Investigator: Nier, A. O. C.
Univ. Minnesota, Minneapolis, Minn.
Investigation: Measure the Elemental and Isotopic Abundances of He, Ne, Ar, Kr, and Xe by Mass Spectrometry

Perkins, R. W. -- Co-Investigators: Wogman. N. A., Kaye, J. H., Cooper, J. A., Rancitelli, L. A.
Battelle Mem. Inst., Richland, Wash.
Investigation: Non-Destructive Gamma-Ray Spectrometry for Cosmic Ray Induced and Natural Radio-Nuclides

Philpotts, J. A. -- Co-Investigators: Schnetzler, C., Masuda, A., Thomas, H. H.
NASA Goddard Space Flight, Center, Greenbelt, Md.
Investigation: Determine the Rare Earth Element Content Using Dilution Technique and Mass Spectrometry

Ponnamperuma, C. A. -- Co-Investigators: Oyama, V. I., Pollack, G., Gehrke, C. W., Zill, L. P.
NASA Ames Res. Center, Moffett Field, Calif.; Univ. Missouri
Investigation: Analytical Lunar Sample Analyses for Amino Acids, Nucleic Acids, Sugars, Fatty Acids, Hydrocarbons, Porphyrins and Their Components

Quaide, W. L. -- Co-Investigators: Wrigley, R. C. (a), Debs, R. J. (a), Bunch, T. E. (b)
Ames Res. Center
Investigation: (a) By Non-Destructive Gamma-Ray Spectrometry Determine the Al26, Na22, and Mn54 Content (b) Microscopic, X-Ray Diffraction Analysis to Determine the Effects of Shock on Minerals and Rocks

Ramdohr. P. -- Co-Investigator: ElGoresy, A.
Max Planck Institut, Heidelberg, Germany
Investigation: Identification of Opaque Minerals, Phases and Composition by X-Ray, Microprobe, and Microscopic Analysis

Reed, G. W. -- Co-Investigators: Huizenga, J., Jovanovic, S., Fuchs, L.
Argonne Nat. Lab., Argonne, Ill.
Investigation: Concentration, Isotopic Composition and Distribution of Trace Elements by Neutron Activation Analysis

Reynolds, J. H. -- Co-Investigators: Rowe, M. W., Hohenberg, C. M.
Univ. Calif., Berkeley
Investigation: (a) Rare Gas Content by Mass Spectrometry (b) Mass Spectrometry to Identify Cosmic Ray Produced Nuclides (c) Mass Spectrometry to Determine Rare Gas, K and U Content; Identify Cosmic Ray Produced Nuclides

Rho, J. H. -- Co-Investigators: Bauman, A. J., Bonner, J. F.
NASA Jet Propulsion Lab., Pasadena, California; Cal. Inst. Tech.
Investigation: Determine Metallic and Non-Metallic Porphyrin Content by Fluorescence Spectrophotometry

Richardson, K. A. -- Co-Investigators: McKay, D. S., Foss, T. H.
NASA Manned Spacecraft Center, Houston, Texas
Investigation: By Autoradiography and Alpha Particle Spectroscopy Identify Alpha Emitting Nuclides

Ringwood, A. E. -- Co-Investigator: Green, D. H.
Australian Nat'l Univ., Canberra
Investigation: Petrographic Analysis by Study of Thin and Polished Sections

Robie, R. A.
U.S. Geol. Survey, D. C.
Investigation: Calorimetry (Thermal Properties)

Roedder, E.
U.S. Geol. Survey, D. C.
Investigation: Determine the Nature and Composition of Fluid inclusions, if Present, in Lunar Material

Rose, H. W., Jr. -- Co-Investigators: Cuttitta, F., Dwornik, E. J
U.S. Geol. Survey, Washington, D. C.
Investigation: X-Ray Fluorescence Methods for Elemental Analysis

Don't criticize what you can't understand. — Bob Dylan, “The Times They Are A-Changin'” (1963)
Some people think they are thinking when they are really rearranging their prejudices and superstitions. — Edward R. Murrow (1908–65)

Kiwi

Posts: 1,064

Rocks from the Moon Jul 28, 2005 7:21:57 GMT -4

Post by Kiwi on Jul 28, 2005 7:21:57 GMT -4

Continued:

Ross, M. -- Co-Investigators: Warner, J., Papike, J. J., Clark, J. R.
U.S. Geol. Survey, Washington, D. C.; NASA MSC; USGS, D. C.
Investigation: Determine the Crystallographic Parameters and Composition of Pyroxenes, Micas, Amphiboles, and Host Silicate Minerals by X-Ray Diffraction and Electron Microprobe

Runcorn, S. K.
Univ. of Newcastle Upon Tyne, England
Investigation: Magnetic Properties in Conjunction with Mineralogic Studies

Schaeffer, O. A. -- Co-Investigators: Zahringer. J., Bogard, D.
State Univ. of N. Y. at Stony Brook, N. Y.; Max Planck Inst. Germany; Manned Spacecraft Ctr.
Investigation: Determine Rare Gas Content by Mass Spectrometry at LRL

Schmidt, R. A. -- Co-Investigator: Loveland, W. D.
Oregon State Univ., Corvallis, Ore.
Investigation: Determine Rare-Earth and Selected Trace Elements Content by Neutron Activation Analysis. Isotopes of Sm, Eu, Gd will be Determined by Mass Spectrometry

Schopf, W.
Univ. of Calif., L.A., Los Angeles
Investigation: Micropaleontological Study Using Transmission and Scanning Electron Microscopy

Sclar, C. B. -- Co-Investigator: Melton, C. W.
Battelle Mem. Inst., Columbus, Ohio
Investigation: Using Replication and Thin Section Electron Microscopy Determine the Damage in Minerals and Rocks Due to Shock

Scoon, J. H.
Univ. Cambridge, England
Investigation: Wet Chemical Analysis for Major Elements

Short, N. M.
Univ. Houston, Houston, Texas
Investigation: By Petrographic Studies Determine Effect of Shock on Rocks and Minerals and Predict Magnitude of Shock and Line of Impacting Missile

Silver, L. T. -- Co-Investigator: Patterson, C. C.
Calif. Inst. Tech., Pasadena, Calif.
Investigation: Determine Lead isotopes, Concentrations of U, Th, Pb, and their occurrence in Minerals

Simmons, G. -- Co-Investigators: Brace, W. F., Wones, D. R. (parts a & b only)
Mass. Inst. Tech., Cambridge, Mass.
Investigation: (a) Calculate Elastic Properties From Measurement of Compressional Shear Wave Velocities at STP (b) Measure Thermal Conductivity, Expansion and Diffusivity at STP (c) Determine Dielectric Constant, Resistivity (d) Determine Thermal Properties at STP on Samples of Core From Lunar Surface

Sippel, R. F. -- Co-Investigator: Spencer, A. B.
Mobil Res. and Dev. Corp., Dallas, Texas
Investigation: Apply Luminescence Petrography to Study of Lunar Materials

Skinner, B. J. -- Co-investigator: Winchell, H.
Yale Univ., New Haven, Conn.
Investigation: Examine the Returned Samples for Condensed Sublimates and if Present Determine the Mineral Phases Present and Elemental Composition

Smales, A. A.
Atomic Energy Research Estab., Harwell, England
Investigation: Elemental and Isotopic Abundances by Neutron Activation Analysis and by Emission, Spark Source, and X-Ray Fluorescence Spectrography

Smith, J. V. -- Co-Investigators: Wyllie, P. J., Elders, W. A.
Univ. Chicago, Chicago, Ill.
Investigation: Mineralogic-Petrographic Analysis Using Microprobe, X-Ray Diffraction and Microscopic Methods

Stephens, D. R. -- Co-Investigator: Keeler, R. N.
Lawrence Radiation Lab., Livermore, California
Investigation: Physical Properties-Equation of State

Stewart, D. B. -- Co-Investigators: Appleman, D. E., Papike, J. J., Clark, J. R., Ross, M.
U.S. Geol. Survey. D.C.
Investigation: Crystal Structure and Stabilities of Feldspars

Strangway, D. W.
Univ. Toronto, Canada
Investigation: Determine Magnetic Properties Including Remanent, Susceptibility, Thermal, Demagnetization, Identify Magnetic Minerals

Tatsumoto, M. -- Co-Investigator: Doe, B. R.
U.S. Geol. Survey, Denver, Colo.
Investigation: Pb Analysis by Mass Spectrometry; U and Th Analysis by Mass Spectrometry and Alpha Spectrometry

Tolansky, S.
Royal Holloway College, Univ. London, England
Investigation: Isotopic Abundances of U and Th by Microscopic Studies of Diamonds

Turekian, K. K.
Yale Univ., New Haven, Conn.
Investigation: Determine 20 Elements Having Halflives Greater Than 3 Days By Neutron Activation Analysis

Turkevich, A. L.
Univ. of Chicago, Chicago, Ill.
Investigation: (a) Determine Long Lived Isotopes of K, U, and Th by Gamma Ray Spectrometry (b) Neutron Activation Analysis for U, Th, B1, Pb, Tl, and Hg.

Turner, G.
Univ. Sheffield
Investigation: Determine Ar40/Ar39 for Age Dating

Urey, H. C. -- Co-Investigator: Marti, K.
Univ. Calif., San Diego, La Jolla, Calif.
Investigation: Isotopic Abundances by Mass Spectroscopy

Von Engelhardt, W. -- Co-Investigators: Stoffler, D., Muller, W., Arndt, J.
Univ. Tubingen, Tubingen, Germany
Investigation: Petrographic Study to Determine Shock Effects

Walker, R. M.
Washington Univ., St. Louis, Mo.
Investigation: (a) Measure the Structural Damage to Crystalline Material by Several Techniques (b) Geochronological Studies by Investigation of Fission Tracks From Radioactive and Cosmic Ray Particles

Wanke, H. -- Co-Investigators: Begemann, F., Rieder, R., Vilcsek, E., Voshage, H., Wlotzka, F.
Max Planck Inst., Fur Chemie, Mainz Germany
Investigation: (a) Determine K, Th, U Content (b) Measure Cosmic Ray induced Radioactive Nuclides C14 and Cl30 (c) Major Elemental Abundances by Fast Neutron Activation (d) Minor Elemental Abundances by Thermal Neutron Activation

Wanless, R. K. -- Co-Investigators: Stevens, R. D., Loveridge, W. D.
Geol. Survey, Ottawa, Canada
Investigation: Determine Concentrations of Pb, U, Th, Rb, Sr, Ar, & K and the Isotopic Compositions of Pb and Sr.

Wasserburg, G. J. -- Co-Investigator: Burnett, D. S.
Cal. Inst. Tech.
Investigation: Determine K, Ar, Rb, Sr and Rare Gas (He, Ne, Ar, Kr, Xe) Content by Mass Spectrometry

Wasson. J. T. -- Co-Investigator: Baedecker, P. A.
Univ. Calif., Los Angeles, Calif.
Investigation: Elemental Abundances for Ga and Ge by Neutron Activation

Weeks, R. A. -- Co-Investigator: Kolopus, J.
Oak Ridge Nat. Lab., Oak Ridge, Tenn.
Investigation: Determine the Valence State and Symmetry of the Crystalline Material Using Electron Spin and Nuclear Magnetic Resonance Techniques and Spin Lattice Relaxation Studies

Weill, D. F.
Univ. Oregon, Eugene, Ore.
Investigation: Determine Temperature of Rock Formation by Study of Plagioclase Properties

Wetherill, G. W.
Univ. Calif., Los Angeles, Calif.
Investigation: Determine Isotopes of Rb, Sr, U, and Pb by Mass Spectrometry

Wiik, H. B. -- Co-Investigator: Ojanpera, P. M.
Geol. Survey, Helsinki, Finland
Investigation: Wet Chemical Methods to Determine Major Elemental Abundance

Wood, J. A. -- Co-Investigator: Marvin, U. B.
Smithsonian Inst., Astrophysical Obs., Cambridge, Mass.
Investigation: Mineralogic and Petrologic Studies by Optical Microscopy, X-Ray Diffraction and Electron Microprobe Measurements

Zahringer, J. -- Co-Investigators: Kirsten, I., Lammerzahl, P.
Max Planck Inst. Heidelberg, Heidelberg, Germany
Investigation: By Microprobe Analysis and Mass Spectrometry Determine Gas Content and Solar Wind Particle Distribution

Zussman, J.
Univ. Manchester, Manchester, England
Investigation: Geochemical, Mineralogic, and Petrological Studies

Don't criticize what you can't understand. — Bob Dylan, “The Times They Are A-Changin'” (1963)
Some people think they are thinking when they are really rearranging their prejudices and superstitions. — Edward R. Murrow (1908–65)

twinstead Posts: 515	Rocks from the Moon Jul 28, 2005 8:05:08 GMT -4 Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by twinstead on Jul 28, 2005 8:05:08 GMT -4 Obviously, all those people are in on the hoax.

PhantomWolf Posts: 4,620	Rocks from the Moon Jul 28, 2005 9:41:27 GMT -4 Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by PhantomWolf on Jul 28, 2005 9:41:27 GMT -4 twinstead said: Obviously, all those people are in on the hoax. Didn't you know that everyone except the HB's is in on it. We just keep them in the dark with lies and unbeleivable physics.
	It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah "On two occasions, I have been asked, 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)

margamatix
Mars
BANNED

Posts: 403

Rocks from the Moon Jul 28, 2005 10:36:59 GMT -4

Post by margamatix on Jul 28, 2005 10:36:59 GMT -4

phantomwolf said:

twinstead said:

Obviously, all those people are in on the hoax.

.

It's not a case of being "in on the hoax". I am sure they genuinely believe in what they are saying, just as those who persecuted "witches" in Salem did in the late 1600s.

The Salem witchcraft hysteria is probably the closest thing in history to moon-landing-belief hysteria, but in the end, the truth outed, and it will about the Apollo moon-faking too.

Immorality: the morality of those who are having a better time. HL Mencken.

Kiwi

Posts: 1,064

Rocks from the Moon Jul 28, 2005 10:43:03 GMT -4

Post by Kiwi on Jul 28, 2005 10:43:03 GMT -4

phantomwolf said:

Actually they [lunar meteorites] have been discovered in other places as well. Here's a great page on Lunites.

Many thanks for that highly informative link, PhantomWolf. I've saved the page to my hard drive for slow, deliberate study. It is just one of the many advantages of frequenting boards like this one -- there are always people who make fascinating finds and pass them on.

Then there are other wonderful gems like a certain Utah-ite's line, "A poll that says penicillin is made from sunshine and farts does not change the scientific facts regarding the origin of the drug." I burst out laughing long and loud at that one, right at the time I needed it.

Last Edit: Jul 28, 2005 10:43:57 GMT -4 by Kiwi

Don't criticize what you can't understand. — Bob Dylan, “The Times They Are A-Changin'” (1963)
Some people think they are thinking when they are really rearranging their prejudices and superstitions. — Edward R. Murrow (1908–65)

PhantomWolf

Posts: 4,620

Rocks from the Moon Jul 28, 2005 10:58:24 GMT -4

Post by PhantomWolf on Jul 28, 2005 10:58:24 GMT -4

Well I'm sure that all tucked up nice and safe in your little fantasy world you believe that, shame you have zero proof to support your delusions. However, what is a bigger shame is that instead of looking at the evidence that show's your beliefs to be the fabracatins of charlents (Sibrel, Kaysing, Reense, Alius, White) you continue to put your fingers in your ears and and shake your head singing. "I can't hear you."

I have stated this elsewhere. Ignorance is lack of education and can be fixed by learning things. Willful ignorance is nothing more than stupidity. It is the most contemptable quality in a lot of Conspriacy Theroists, that they refuse to learn, or even acknowledge anything other then what they deludedly cling to to uphold their warped beliefs.

I really don't know if you suffer from the some anti-authority bent that most Pro-Haxers fall into or not, but it's a real shame that you have so closed a mind that you can't even see what daft things you are spouting. You can't even bring yourself to go and read anything that would challenge your ideas. That's just sad.

A lot of people thought I was being hard on you, and intially I did as well, but now I don't. I've seen people like you come and go from here. Blindly spouting the garbage they have read on some site or other as if it's gospel, unable to use enough of their brain to actually challenge what they have read, nor to defend it with more than continual repeated statements of their belief. You are nothing new, you are exctly like all the others. I sorry for you, because it must be a sad way to live life unable to do more than unthinkingly parrot off websites and seeing conspiracy under even rock.

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah

"On two occasions, I have been asked, 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)

PhantomWolf

Posts: 4,620

Rocks from the Moon Jul 28, 2005 11:09:54 GMT -4

Post by PhantomWolf on Jul 28, 2005 11:09:54 GMT -4

kiwi said:

Many thanks for that highly informative link, PhantomWolf. I've saved the page to my hard drive for slow, deliberate study. It is just one of the many advantages of frequenting boards like this one -- there are always people who make fascinating finds and pass them on.

It's just a shame that people like Margamatix will never emjoy them because to even bother reading them would be a challenge to their idealology and so they couldn't bring themselves to do it. I guess we'll just have to enjoy it for them.

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah

"On two occasions, I have been asked, 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)

twinstead

Posts: 515

Rocks from the Moon Jul 28, 2005 11:12:22 GMT -4

Post by twinstead on Jul 28, 2005 11:12:22 GMT -4

margamatix said:

It's not a case of being "in on the hoax". I am sure they genuinely believe in what they are saying, just as those who persecuted "witches" in Salem did in the late 1600s.

The Salem witchcraft hysteria is probably the closest thing in history to moon-landing-belief hysteria, but in the end, the truth outed, and it will about the Apollo moon-faking too.

Wow. You really believe that. I've read your 'evidence' the moon landings were hoaxed in all these threads, and noted your lack of intelligent answers to their rebuttals; for pure entertainment you ROCK!

You think you are talking to just a few folks, but you forget that there are probably dozens of people lurking this thread.

It appears that you, like most Hoax Believers, are simply a rabid, irrational ideologue in sheep's clothing, believing anything you read no questions asked as long as it fits your world view.

it is as obvious as the sky is blue.

EDIT for spelling

Last Edit: Jul 28, 2005 11:13:12 GMT -4 by twinstead

Bob B. Bob the Excel Guru? Posts: 3,072	Rocks from the Moon Jul 28, 2005 11:21:07 GMT -4 Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Bob B. on Jul 28, 2005 11:21:07 GMT -4 Margamatix is doing little more than trolling at this point. He/she has chosen to remain ignorant so continuing a conversation is pointless. I think the time has come to simply ingnore him/her.
	Webmaster, Rocket & Space Technology "Skeptics are the consumer advocates in the marketplace of ideas" - JayUtah

margamatix
Mars
BANNED

Posts: 403

Rocks from the Moon Jul 28, 2005 11:42:04 GMT -4

Post by margamatix on Jul 28, 2005 11:42:04 GMT -4

phantomwolf said:

I really don't know if you suffer from the some anti-authority bent that most Pro-Haxers fall into or not, but it's a real shame that you have so closed a mind that you can't even see what daft things you are spouting. You can't even bring yourself to go and read anything that would challenge your ideas. That's just sad.

A lot of people thought I was being hard on you, and intially I did as well, but now I don't. I've seen people like you come and go from here. Blindly spouting the garbage they have read on some site or other as if it's gospel, unable to use enough of their brain to actually challenge what they have read, nor to defend it with more than continual repeated statements of their belief. You are nothing new, you are exctly like all the others. I sorry for you, because it must be a sad way to live life unable to do more than unthinkingly parrot off websites and seeing conspiracy under even rock.

Thanks for descending into personal insult. What better way to show that you've lost the argument!

Immorality: the morality of those who are having a better time. HL Mencken.

margamatix
Mars
BANNED

Posts: 403

Rocks from the Moon Jul 28, 2005 11:45:14 GMT -4

Post by margamatix on Jul 28, 2005 11:45:14 GMT -4

twinstead said:

margamatix said:

It appears that you, like most Hoax Believers, are simply a rabid, irrational ideologue in sheep's clothing, believing anything you read no questions asked as long as it fits your world view.

And another one.....

Immorality: the morality of those who are having a better time. HL Mencken.

frenat

Posts: 655

Rocks from the Moon Jul 28, 2005 11:52:59 GMT -4

Post by frenat on Jul 28, 2005 11:52:59 GMT -4

margamatix said:

twinstead said:

margamatix said:

It appears that you, like most Hoax Believers, are simply a rabid, irrational ideologue in sheep's clothing, believing anything you read no questions asked as long as it fits your world view.

And another one.....

The truth hurts, doesn't it?

Last Edit: Jul 28, 2005 11:53:32 GMT -4 by frenat

Post by PeterB on Jul 27, 2005 19:36:00 GMT -4

Post by PhantomWolf on Jul 27, 2005 22:19:48 GMT -4

Post by Kiwi on Jul 28, 2005 7:20:49 GMT -4

Post by Kiwi on Jul 28, 2005 7:21:57 GMT -4

Post by twinstead on Jul 28, 2005 8:05:08 GMT -4

Post by PhantomWolf on Jul 28, 2005 9:41:27 GMT -4

Post by margamatix on Jul 28, 2005 10:36:59 GMT -4

Post by Kiwi on Jul 28, 2005 10:43:03 GMT -4

Post by PhantomWolf on Jul 28, 2005 10:58:24 GMT -4

Post by PhantomWolf on Jul 28, 2005 11:09:54 GMT -4

Post by twinstead on Jul 28, 2005 11:12:22 GMT -4

Post by Bob B. on Jul 28, 2005 11:21:07 GMT -4

Post by margamatix on Jul 28, 2005 11:42:04 GMT -4

Post by margamatix on Jul 28, 2005 11:45:14 GMT -4

Post by frenat on Jul 28, 2005 11:52:59 GMT -4