Another question for Margamatix (just for fun)

[gezalenko]

Reading through the threads started by Margamatix, I was often frustrated by his persistent unwillingness to address the substance of the many responses to his questions. If he found the responses persuasive, it would have been polite to say so, while if he disagreed with the responses, it would have been nice to see his rebuttals.
In passing, I looked at his profile, where there’s a link to his own website, www.truckdrivinginrussia.co.uk/ which describes some truck journeys he made from Britain to Russia a few years ago. As my job involves dealing with the UK road haulage industry, I really liked his site - I found it interesting and a lot of fun.

I then thought – for a bit more fun – what would it be like if I approached his story from a HB viewpoint ?
Let me say from the outset that I am not generally a HB, and I am convinced that Margamatix actually did make the journeys he claims to have made. This is also not intended to be an ad hominem on Margamatix or anyone else – if it comes across that way, I apologise in advance.

On his very first page, there’s a photo of Margamatix allegedly negotiating with a policeman. There’s so much wrong with this photo, I don’t know where to start. But the most obvious problem is – who took the photo ? He never mentions anyone accompanying him on his journeys, therefore he must have been alone. So how could this picture have been taken ? It must have been staged.

Like Margamatix, I live in the UK. Unlike Margamatix, I do not claim to have ever been to Russia. Nor have I ever driven a truck. The idea that it is possible to drive a truck from the UK to Russia is absurd. I know trucks can travel a few hundred miles the length of the UK, and maybe even across Europe, but Russia is a whole lot further away – it just can’t be done.

Margamatix claims that the Russia missions stopped in 1998. Seven years have passed without a UK-Russia journey. Why ? If we had the technology then, surely we must still have it now ?

Some of the photos on his site are suspiciously well framed – they were obviously posed in a studio.

Quote – “during the winter, temperatures often drop to -40 degrees Celsius.” Human beings can not survive these temperatures, therefore the Russia missions were fake.

Margamatix claims that summers in Russia are very warm, and winters extremely cold. No camera could cope with such a range of temperatures, yet his site carries photos purportedly taken in both summer and winter.

He states “roads are in very poor condition” but includes one photo on page 3 of a straight, wide road, with very little traffic and no obvious road defects. This type of inconsistency must have been deliberately introduced by whistleblowers to alert the public to the Russia missions scam.

On page 3 there’s a photo of a big truck crash, and Margamatix himself says that there were many more accidents. It is obvious that truck technology was not up to the job at that time, and the authorities knew it. Therefore they faked the Russia missions.

On page 4 there’s an episode about two dead chickens talking to each other. Live chickens can not talk to each other, let alone dead ones, therefore the Russia missions were faked.

So, the question for Margamatix is – how would you respond to these claims ?

[PhantomWolf]

Well you convinced me, though I suspect that margamatix's response will be to ignore you since "he didn't start this thread and therefore doesn't have to reply to it," not that he actually replies in those he did start.

[sts60]

I'm a pretty large guy (6'2", 245 lbs or 188 cm, 111 kg or almost 18 stone for you UK people).

Suppose I politely asked margamatix for an interview on truck driving, then cornered him and started screaming at him in front of his family to swear on a Bible that he actually drove there, and called him liar and a thief? Surely he wouldn't take offense if he had actually done it...

[margamatix]

sts60 said:

I'm a pretty large guy (6'2", 245 lbs or 188 cm, 111 kg or almost 18 stone for you UK people).

Suppose I politely asked margamatix for an interview on truck driving, then cornered him and started screaming at him in front of his family to swear on a Bible that he actually drove there, and called him liar and a thief? Surely he wouldn't take offense if he had actually done it...

No, I wouldn't.

I swear before almighty God that i have driven from the UK to Russia on several occasions.

I swear on my children's eyes that I have driven from the UK to Russia on several occasions.


If it's not a problem for me, then what problem do Neil and Buzz have with it?

[LunarOrbit]

Because they knew that no matter what they did it would be in Bart Sibrel's favour. If they refuse he says they're hiding something, if they agree to do it then he says they're lying and hiding something. Why would they want to play his games?

[margamatix]

gezalenko said:

This is also not intended to be an ad hominem on Margamatix or anyone else – if it comes across that way, I apologise in advance.

It doesn't come across that way, so apologies unneccessary.

Here we go then...............

gezalenko said:

On his very first page, there’s a photo of Margamatix allegedly negotiating with a policeman. There’s so much wrong with this photo, I don’t know where to start. But the most obvious problem is – who took the photo ?

My girlfriend at the time.

gezalenko said:

He never mentions anyone accompanying him on his journeys, therefore he must have been alone.

Non- sequitur. I have never said that I have brown hair, but this does not mean that I do not have brown hair.

gezalenko said:

I know trucks can travel a few hundred miles the length of the UK, and maybe even across Europe, but Russia is a whole lot further away – it just can’t be done.

Vehicles from many different countries have driven to Russia. Anybody who has is quite happy to talk about it. In fact, you can't get them to shut up about it.- Unlike Neil "don't mention the moon" Armstrong.

gezalenko said:

Margamatix claims that the Russia missions stopped in 1998. Seven years have passed without a UK-Russia journey. Why ? If we had the technology then, surely we must still have it now ?

Read it again. Many trucks still travel from the UK to Russia. I stopped going there because I became a father, and could not justify doing such a dangerous job any longer.

gezalenko said:

Some of the photos on his site are suspiciously well framed – they were obviously posed in a studio.

Would I have any interest in falsifying such a trip?

gezalenko said:

Quote – “during the winter, temperatures often drop to -40 degrees Celsius.” Human beings can not survive these temperatures, therefore the Russia missions were fake.

Russia has a population of over 200 million, the vast majority of whom have no trouble surviving the winter. What is the population of the moon?

gezalenko said:

Margamatix claims that summers in Russia are very warm, and winters extremely cold. No camera could cope with such a range of temperatures, yet his site carries photos purportedly taken in both summer and winter.

Film does not melt at 40 degrees celsius, although I have lost films which snapped in the camera at minus 40, so I would agree that this is below the minimum temperature for the use of film.

gezalenko said:

He states “roads are in very poor condition” but includes one photo on page 3 of a straight, wide road, with very little traffic and no obvious road defects. This type of inconsistency must have been deliberately introduced by whistleblowers to alert the public to the Russia missions scam.

On page 3 there’s a photo of a big truck crash, and Margamatix himself says that there were many more accidents. It is obvious that truck technology was not up to the job at that time, and the authorities knew it. Therefore they faked the Russia missions.

There were loads of accidents. Here's one of mine





Lots of people died doing the job. Whether this means that the technology was "not up to the job" is open to debate.

gezalenko said:

On page 4 there’s an episode about two dead chickens talking to each other. Live chickens can not talk to each other, let alone dead ones, therefore the Russia missions were faked.

Finally, we come to the one point where a small part of my website has something in common with NASA's claims.............


It was a joke!

[JayUtah]

My girlfriend at the time.

Your love life is irrelevant to your claims. You're simply unwilling to accept the clear fact that these are faked photos.

(Isn't it annoying when people simply cling to their old notions and refuse to look at additional information that is relevant?)

Anybody who has is quite happy to talk about it.

They're all in on the hoax.

(Isn't it annoying when people offer speculation instead of proof?)

Would I have any interest in falsifying such a trip?

It's a hoax; your interests don't have to make sense.

(Isn't it annoying when people abrogate their burdens of proof?)

There were loads of accidents.

Proof that it's dangerous and could not have been accomplished.

(Isn't it annoying when people oversimply the problem?)

Lots of people died doing the job. Whether this means that the technology was "not up to the job" is open to debate.

If the technology had been doing its job, people would not have died. And those who died were probably killed to keep them from revealing the truth.

(Isn't it annoying when people pretend to be experts in things they know nothing about, and make vague accusations in order to cover up holes in their theories?)

[JayUtah]

Unlike Neil "don't mention the moon" Armstrong.

You have found one context in which Armstrong did not want to talk about Apollo. Now explain all the other contexts in which he did.

..films which snapped in the camera at minus 40, so I would agree that this is below the minimum temperature for the use of film.

That is the minimum temperature for the use of that kind of film. You weren't using polyester-backed film, so of course it cracked. Are you trying to claim that no film can work in space?

[margamatix]

jayutah said:

You have found one context in which Armstrong did not want to talk about Apollo. Now explain all the other contexts in which he did.

Bill Kaysing once said "If my theories are false, then any of the Apollo astronauts, with their first-hand knowledge and experience, would be able to destroy them within five minutes"


You are (hypothetically) expostulating the thesis that I have not driven from the UK to Russia.

Let's meet on prime-time TV. I will destroy your argument within five minutes.


Buzz Aldrin and Bill Kaysing agreed to meet on prime-time TV to discuss Kaysing's theory that the moon landings were faked. I believe the presenter was called Truman Lafayette or something similar.



Come the day, Aldrin failed to show up. Kaysing and Lafayette had to do the show without him.

[Bob B.]

margamatix said:

Bill Kaysing once said "If my theories are false, then any of the Apollo astronauts, with their first-hand knowledge and experience, would be able to destroy them within five minutes"

Even people without first-hand knowledge can easily destroy Kaysing's claims. Many people have already done so repeatedly, including most of us here at this forum.

[JayUtah]

Bill Kaysing once said "If my theories are false, then any of the Apollo astronauts, with their first-hand knowledge and experience, would be able to destroy them within five minutes"

That does not create a need or desire in the astronauts to do so. Kaysing needed the astronauts for his publicity and notoreity. They did not need him for their credibility. If someone calls you a liar according to a flimsy line of reasoning, you have a choice either of refuting the accusation directly, or trusting that people will not believe the accusation. If you suspect that your accuser's motive is simply to get attention from you, you might choose the latter. If you issued a public refutation, you will be giving your accuser the attention he wants.

You are (hypothetically) expostulating the thesis that I have not driven from the UK to Russia.

Yes, to put the shoe on the other foot. You are talking to us about things that we know very, very well. And the claims you are making in that respect are absurd. I don't think you realize just how absurd and poorly-argued they are, so this exercise discusses something you know very, very well. We are making the same kinds of challenges to your expert knowledge that you are making to ours. The hope is that when you realize how absurd our claims are with respect to your area of expertise, you will make that transfer of understanding and understand how absurd your claims are regarding Apollo.

Buzz Aldrin and Bill Kaysing agreed to meet on prime-time TV to discuss Kaysing's theory that the moon landings were faked.

So says Kaysing. Bill Kaysing is full of bald-faced lies like that. He has made countless claims of that nature, which have been proven false. For example, he claimed he did a radio show for a station whose transmitter was bombed during the middle of his show. I tracked down the people who worked for the now-defunct station in the Bay Area, and they have absolutely no recollection of their transmitter ever having been bombed. (Kaysing deliberately chose a station that was no longer in operation, to make it harder for his critics to check up on his story. Unfortuately it was a well-beloved station and the people involved with it are minor celebrities in the Bay Area radio community, whose subsequent careers are visible.)

Kaysing also claims certain people were "just about" to contact him and reveal the hoax, when they mysteriously died. No evidence of any such contact can be produced. And, of course, since those people are no longer available to be interviewed, and since they are the only other witnesses to the alleged happenings, Kaysing is safe.

In other words, Kaysing quite happily and effortlessly makes up these stories that seem plausible but cannot be verified because they involve anonymous or unavailable people. All the other characters in Kaysing's stories are "conveniently" unable to be questioned. I have no reason to trust his word that he actually contacted Aldrin and arranged any such debate. And we only have Kaysing's word that any of that was about to take place.

I'm sure you'll say that Aldrin would be a witness, but since he's the villain in the story, you'd expect him to "lie" and say he was never contacted. Buzz Aldrin has appeared more than once on television to denounce and refute the hoax theories, including on the program in which I also appeared. He clearly does not shrink from such opportunities.

[sts60]

margamatix said:

sts60 said:

I'm a pretty large guy (6'2", 245 lbs or 188 cm, 111 kg or almost 18 stone for you UK people).

Suppose I politely asked margamatix for an interview on truck driving, then cornered him and started screaming at him in front of his family to swear on a Bible that he actually drove there, and called him liar and a thief? Surely he wouldn't take offense if he had actually done it...

No, I wouldn't.

You wouldn't mind me cornering you (after arranging a meeting by lying to you) physically blocking your path, and screaming at you that you're a liar and a coward and a thief, and shoving a Bible in your face, in front of family members?

Wow. You must be some kind of saint.

I swear before almighty God that i have driven from the UK to Russia on several occasions.

I swear on my children's eyes that I have driven from the UK to Russia on several occasions.

Some of the most charming and sincere people around, who will swear up and down on God or their children or anything else, are lying, murderous psychopaths. Your statement alone is not enough (though it so happens I believe you did).

If it's not a problem for me, then what problem do Neil and Buzz have with it?

Because they don't feel like jumping through hoops for an abusive liar like Sibrel? Tell you what - if he tried to pull that on me, demanding, say, to swear that I've never cheated on my wife (which I haven't!), not only would I not have complied, but he would need prompt dental care.

So I'm not interested in your idea that there's something fishy about astronauts not playing the games of a proven liar and stalker. What I am interested in is you actually defending your other claims on their technical merits - which you have yet to do.

[sts60]

My girlfriend at the time.

How convenient - an alleged girlfriend. Of course, the inability of truck technology at the time to reach Russia from the UK means that even if she existed, she couldn't have been there.

Non- sequitur. I have never said that I have brown hair, but this does not mean that I do not have brown hair.

Changing your story to confuse the issue. What else are you hiding from us?

Vehicles from many different countries have driven to Russia. Anybody who has is quite happy to talk about it. In fact, you can't get them to shut up about it.- Unlike Neil "don't mention the moon" Armstrong.

The inability of truck technology to reach Russia from the UK means that anybody claiming to have driven there from another country is in on the hoax. If they don't shut up about it, they must be well-paid by the hoaxers.

Read it again. Many trucks still travel from the UK to Russia. I stopped going there because I became a father, and could not justify doing such a dangerous job any longer.

Nice story. What actually happened is that you became wracked with guilt over participating in the hoax.

You've also admitted the insanely dangerous nature of attempting to drive a truck to Russia, far too dangerous for anyone to survive.

In fact, you haven't driven that far in years. Why, if we had the capability to do it then, hasn't anyone done it lately?

Would I have any interest in falsifying such a trip?

Because you're part of the hoax. Duh.

Russia has a population of over 200 million, the vast majority of whom have no trouble surviving the winter. What is the population of the moon?

I have seen just as many people in Russia as I have on the Moon. It's quite easy to put something together on a sound stage and call it "Russia".

Of course, as we know Russia is surrounded by border guards, gets too cold to survive in the winter, and has lethal wolves and bears. Yet we keep getting told by official government mouthpieces that there are people there! How gullible do they think we are?

Film does not melt at 40 degrees celsius, although I have lost films which snapped in the camera at minus 40, so I would agree that this is below the minimum temperature for the use of film.

Thank you for admitting that your photographic "evidence" is faked. Probably done with Photoshop.

There were loads of accidents. Here's one of mine

The accidents show how inadequate the technology is to actually drive to Russia. Your claiming to have survived an accident is, of course, absurd.

Lots of people died doing the job. Whether this means that the technology was "not up to the job" is open to debate.

No debate. It's clearly inadequate. Of course, you live in the UK, which is separated from Europe and Russia by a dense belt of water which would kill any trucker who drove into it. Any oceanographer can tell you how ridiculous it is to think you'd survive that.

Finally, we come to the one point where a small part of my website has something in common with NASA's claims.............

It was a joke!

I've looked at pictures of trucks. The real joke is that anyone would think such flimsy contraptions could go from the UK to Russia.

[Bob B.]

jayutah said:

Kaysing also claims certain people were "just about" to contact him and reveal the hoax, when they mysteriously died. No evidence of any such contact can be produced. And, of course, since those people are no longer available to be interviewed, and since they are the only other witnesses to the alleged happenings, Kaysing is safe.

Let me show you, margamatix, how this works:

As part of my research into the alleged hoax claim I contacted Bill Kaysing last March for an interview. During our conversation, Mr. Kaysing confessed to me that he had been lying about the moon hoax all these years and he knew man really did land on the moon. Kaysing also said he had evidence implicating Bart Sibrel, Ralph Rene, David Percy, and Mary Bennett in a conspiracy to hoodwink the public into believing the moon hoax so they could profit from the sale of their books and videos. I arranged a secret meeting with Mr. Kaysing to obtain his recorded confession and a copy of the evidence implicating the other conspirators. However, just days before our meeting, Bill Kaysing mysteriously died at the age of 82. Unfortunately we’ll never know want evidence he was about to reveal.


(The above is fiction and is not to be taken seriously.)

[margamatix]

sts60 said:

and screaming at you that you're a liar and a coward and a thief,

Evidence?