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Post by rocketdad on Aug 30, 2005 20:35:39 GMT -4
I'm new to this moon-hoax topic. I always thought it was a joke.
I strayed into it by mistake by Googling Moon Movie to find stuff for my kids, 3 and 5. I found Bart. I sent a question regarding the 266-times figure in the intro to his website, and the response was confused, and cofusing. Then I read his Top 15, and felt morally outraged enough to write up a critique, not of the facts but just the logical fallacies imbedded in EVERY ONE.
His response was very rude. If this is the best he has to offer, I can't understand how people can actually fall for his trip.
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Post by LunarOrbit on Aug 30, 2005 20:40:43 GMT -4
Welcome, rocketdad.
I'm surprised you got a response at all... I've sent Bart emails before and never received any replies.
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Post by skinbath on Aug 30, 2005 20:53:45 GMT -4
 welcome. You thought you were amazed thus far.............read on... 
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Post by rocketdad on Aug 30, 2005 21:04:49 GMT -4
Actually, I got response from "Don Smith." He was very rude, so I sent him a text file of the King James Bible and demanded he swear (put your hand on the monitor and type one handed) he believes his own crap. No response. I have no choice but to assume this is all a scam to sell videos to morons.
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Post by skinbath on Aug 30, 2005 21:11:13 GMT -4
rocketdad.........an observation........you may be new to the topic,but once bitten......gotcha.........it sure is fascinating. |
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Post by rocketdad on Aug 30, 2005 21:15:55 GMT -4
My mom and I spent a couple weeks reading about Scam-Baiting the nigerians. I'm a stay-at-home-dad, so I have plenty of time. Seriously, though, is this Bart guy a moron or a fraud?
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Post by turbonium on Aug 30, 2005 21:44:05 GMT -4
I'm new to this moon-hoax topic. I always thought it was a joke. I strayed into it by mistake by Googling Moon Movie to find stuff for my kids, 3 and 5. I found Bart. I sent a question regarding the 266-times figure in the intro to his website, and the response was confused, and cofusing. Then I read his Top 15, and felt morally outraged enough to write up a critique, not of the facts but just the logical fallacies imbedded in EVERY ONE. His response was very rude. If this is the best he has to offer, I can't understand how people can actually fall for his trip. Hi rocketdad. Would it be possible for you to post Sibrel's full response to you? I don't doubt your assessment that the reply was rude (from what I've seen about Sibrel to date) - I just thought it would be interesting to view. If not, no worries Welcome to the forum.. |
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Post by skinbath on Aug 30, 2005 21:57:31 GMT -4
My mom and I spent a couple weeks reading about Scam-Baiting the nigerians. I'm a stay-at-home-dad, so I have plenty of time. Seriously, though, is this Bart guy a moron or a fraud? would you like the long or the short answer? |
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Post by rocketdad on Aug 30, 2005 22:02:18 GMT -4
Mr. Boothby,
You are the one who is hopelessly ignorant, just trying to impress "Ms. Kath" with your fancy prose. You are one of those people that is so caught up in "logic" that unless someone gives you a mathematical proof for something you are lost and otherwise dysfunctional. If you look at your own circumstances it should be evident that because of this you are unable to function except to run your mouth in a flawed and incoherent fashion.
Why don't you just argue about how logical it is to believe Santa flies through the air with his reindeer on Christmas Eve?
The PROOF that they did not go to the moon is in our DVDs. Of course, you'll never bother to view them because you would rather spend all of your time impressing yourself with your so-called logic. The top 15 present circumstantial evidence that the moon landings were not authentic. For example, you discount #15 saying it is an ad hominem attack. Well excuse me, but if you don't think the fact that Nixon had to resign from office due to dishonest conduct doesn't mean something in this context then you need to work on getting yourself a better grip on reality.
Don Smith
----- Original Message -----
From: Isaiah Boothby
To: bart@moonmovie.com
Cc: kathm@indra.com
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2005 9:30 PM
Subject: Moon Video
Thank you for replying to my earlier message, discussing the Intro to your website. I don't want to discuss the content of your proofs, I would like to discuss the logic of your "top 15."
When the structure of an argument is flawed, the facts become irrelevant. A common way of analyzing an argument for faulty logic is to rephrase the statement with different nouns and see if it makes sense. I have copied-and-pasted some phases directly from your website. These appear on my screen in red, and in a different font.
15: All men tell lies. You are a man. Therefore your video is utterly false. Did Nixon ever say anything true? Even one truth from Nixon about anything, ever, invalidates your argument. Biased Sample fallacy, Ad Hominem attack, Strawman defense.
14: Are you on the Pentagon's payrole? You must be. Fantastic anti-government conspiracies distract citizens from discussing actual current events, such as the war in Iraq. False causality, affirming the consequent, non sequitur.
13: Chinese sailors under commander Zheng He reached the shores of Africa in the 15th Century; besides, the chinese invented the compass and black powder. Therefore Americans are all chinese descendents. Irrelevant conclusion.
12: My wife refuses to discuss being a Venezuelan spy, and punched me in the nose the last time I confronted her about it. Begging the question.
11: While rebuilding the engine for my '72 Ford truck, I install a part that causes the engine to lock up. Why would Ford sell repair parts for an engine that could have never actually rotated? Begging the question and irrelevant conclusion.
10: Subverted support, then begging the question.
9: There are no skid-marks under my wife's 200 horsepower automobile. She waves it off as a "driveway effect." Limited Depth fallacy of explanation.
8: Commonly printed photographs of groups, supposedly ordinary humans, often have people with weirdly elongated heads standing at the edge of the group, indicating bizzare mutations. Ordinary humans never have heads that elongated. Fallacy of non-supported explanation. (I refer here to photos taken with a wide angle lens.)
7: London is over 12,000 miles from Denver. My vanagon never traveled more than 1000 miles from Denver. Except for my brother in the Air Force, nobody in my family even claims to have been beyond New York, and when my sister was there she got mugged and went back to Delaware. New York muggings exist because big cities lure criminals. Too many fallacies, but Undistributed Middle is involved, along with the usual Begging the Question, and Post Hoc Causal fallacy.
6: My wife's '74 Beetle supposedly left Longmont to drive all the way to New Orleans, then came back and drove all the way to Boise mere weeks later. "To look at its design and think such could have actually occurred is absolutely ludicrous. " Changing The Subject by Appeal to Authority(1) authority not an expert in the field, with yourself and the reader the supposed authority. Neither of us are qualified engineers, capable of analyzing the design of a vehicle operating in an unfamiliar environment. Also, Begging the Question.
5: Again, you are appealing to the authority of the reader on thermodynamics, a complex field.
4: Take a look at a VW Beetle, which supposedly sold millions and been driven cross-country. It is a blobbish craft with rounded wind-profile and a horizontally opposed air-cooled engine. Upon just looking at this design, to think it would not immediately pinwheel and crash, as the 1964 Corvair did , is absurd. Again, you are appealing to the authority of the reader, you Beg the Question, and you are analyzing emotionally an engineered object, made for an environment with which none of us has the least experience.
3: Here, I think you are just being obtuse.
2: In the early 1960's Chevrolet made the Corvair, a rear engined automobile. Many spun off the road, and many people were killed, leading Nader to write the book "Unsafe At Any Speed." All of the problems were supposedly fixed by 1965, just two years later. How could they have made such a large improvement in "road handling" in such a short period of time? Again, (yet again) you are appealing to the authority of the reader, you Beg the Question, and you are analyzing emotionally an engineered object, made for an environment with which none of us has the least experience.
1: All american servicemen stayed in NewYork for the duration of WWII. Footage of uniformed sailors in Manhattan proves that they never went to Europe. Begging the question, Slothful Induction, Comosition Category error.... the list is long, and I need to change a diaper here.
Your errors are many, and many detractors have tried to educate you about many basic facts of photography, physics, math, etc. I am forced to conclude you are either 1) hopelessly ignorant, and should be prevented from use of sharp impliments, or 2) willfully deceptive, a charlatin peddling intellectual snake oil. See number 14 on this list again.
If you are a knowing vendor of manure I would like to meet you someday for a technical discussion.
If you truly believe this pile of crap, please let me know so I can avoid ever meeting you.
If you think you could change my mind with further discussion, you better get your ducks in a neater and tidier row than the mess on your website.
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Post by PhantomWolf on Aug 30, 2005 22:09:50 GMT -4
Welcome to the forum rocketdad, and to the madness. For a newbie you picked out BS to perfection. He's basically a liar and a fraud who's most likely in it for money and revenge. Now while that might sound strong, there is ample evidence. We know that he lies to obtain interviews with the Astronauts. We knows that he lies about his opponents even ding so on TV. We know that he lies in his claims. We know that he knows his claims are false, and yet he continues to claim them.
Take the "Smoking Gun Footage" on his "Funny thing." He claims that it is only avaliable on his video. False, I have a copy of the entire footage (not the BS edited version on his video) currently sitting on my bookcase. Anyone with the money can buy it, along with the entire video footage of the Apollo 11 mission from Spacecraft Films. Next he claims that the Earth is a "Transparency stuck to the window." However he fails to allow his viewers to se the entire footage because he knows that if he did, that they would see the Earth disappear behind the window frame as the camera moves about. Try that with a transparency stuck to the window, it's impossible.. That and the fact that as the camerta moves about the cabin a little later we find that the sun, as is expected, is out the oposite window so could not have illuminated any such transparacy.
We also knows that he changes his statements to keep the same intent when he is proven wrong. He originally claimed that no other country had sent living beings beyond the VA Belts until it ws shown to him that the Soviets send paylod of turtles, earth worms and spiders bout the moon in 1968 onboard the spacecraft known as Zond 5. So in response, instead of retracting his VA Belt claims, he changed his no one has ever, to No one has do it in the past 30 years.
Whether he does it entirely for the money, or because he has a beef with NASA, the Astronauts and Neil Armstrong in particular (Armstrong complained about him trespassing which resulted in him being fired frm his job) only he really knows. What we know is that he is willing to lie and cheat his way through the entire mess, making up whatever sounds good to sell his tapes even though he knows it is untrue.
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Post by LunarOrbit on Aug 30, 2005 22:13:50 GMT -4
For future reference you probably shouldn't post emails into the forum without the permission of the sender.
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Post by rocketdad on Aug 30, 2005 22:38:49 GMT -4
Sorry for the email fauxpaus, but only because it exposes me as a newbie to the world of online etiquite. I'm not sorry to share such inflammatory nonsense, and I frankly doubt there even IS a Don Smith involved. Even if he exists, and isn't just a BS alias, I seroiusly doubt he visits here.
But lesson learned. thanks.
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Post by turbonium on Aug 30, 2005 23:09:39 GMT -4
For future reference you probably shouldn't post emails into the forum without the permission of the sender. My fault - as he is a newbie, I should have specified he ask permission for reprinting his email, as I know this myself and follow the proper protocol when re-posting the personal replies of others. I have forgotten to do so in the past as well. Sorry, rocketdad and LunarOrbit. Please accept my apologies. |
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Post by LunarOrbit on Aug 30, 2005 23:25:27 GMT -4
No problem... I just don't want you to get into any trouble. I'm sure BS wouldn't hesitate to go after you about it.
I think you're probably right about "Don Smith" being an alias of Bart Sibrel. I can't imagine him having a staff.
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Post by JayUtah on Aug 31, 2005 0:19:28 GMT -4
"Don Smith" is definitely Bart himself. I have seen enough correspondence and writing from him to be able to identify his style. He is very fond of the Santa Claus analogy, irrelevant though it is. And he is forever encouraging people not to think but to trust their emotions instead.
Yes, Bart is a fraud. He knows exactly what he is doing, and his aim is to separate the gullible from their money.
Welcome to the board!
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