Radio signals - Margamatix?

[PeterB]

Folks

This is a thread for Margamatix and me only, please. I'd appreciate it if the rest of you could butt out.

G'day Margamatix

Several times various people (including me) have raised with you the business of radio communications in Apollo. In my opinion, the nature of radio communications is one of the most compelling pieces of evidence that Apollo happened.

For example, we have evidence that the astronauts discussed football scores while matches were in progress. That means we know the recordings were live.

We have evidence that the dishes were pointed at the Moon for hours at a time. That means that who/whatever Mission Control were speaking to was in the vicinity of the Moon.

We have evidence that the signal delay was appropriate for a signal travelling from the Earth to the Moon, and not back to the Earth again. This means that the astronauts weren't on the Earth with their signals being relayed to an empty spacecraft at the Moon.

Unfortunately, I don't think you've ever responded to these points. Now you're perfectly entitled to your opinion, but it's a bit puzzling that you continue to do so while not addressing the radio communications matter.

I'd appreciate it if you could explain how Apollo could have been faked on the basis of this evidence.

Cheers

(And another reminder to everyone else to stay out of this thread. Ta.)

[margamatix]

Hello Peter,

Firstly, apologies for the delay in replying, i have been away again, and have had no internet access.

I will have to research this before I feel qualified to reply, and will do so just as soon as I can find the time.

i will get back to you when I can.

[PeterB]

G'day Margamatix

No worries. However, if I find that the reason you were away was because you were at the cricket, I might be a little miffed.

[PeterB]

Okay, in addition to my previous post, here’s a bit more information for this thread.

Radio signals travel at the speed of light – about 300,000 kilometres per second.

Radio signals travel only in straight lines, and they’re blocked by solid objects like the Earth and the Moon.

The distance from the Earth to the Moon is about 380,000 kilometres.

Cheers

[margamatix]

Could you clarify something for me here please Peter?

You say that there was signal delay, and that this indicated that the signals were being sent to the moon, and returned.

Would you not accept that it would be quite easy to create artificial signal delay if, say, the astronauts were in low Earth orbit?

As for the monitoring of the signals, I understand that the Jodrell Bank equipment in the UK, which was at the time the World's most powerful monitoring equipment, was not even directed towards the Apollo mission because it was not considered to be sufficiently important

[jones]

Margamatix,

I know your question was not directed to me, but....

I would accept that it would be easy to create artificial radio signal delay from low earth orbit if you could explain how it would be done.

Your second point really seems irrelevant to the argument. It's just another example of your contempt for the apollo missions.

[PeterB]

Margamatix said:

Could you clarify something for me here please Peter?

G’day Margamatix, and thanks for getting back. Happy to help where I can.

You say that there was signal delay, and that this indicated that the signals were being sent to the moon, and returned.

That’s right, I said that.

Would you not accept that it would be quite easy to create artificial signal delay if, say, the astronauts were in low Earth orbit?

Yes, it would be possible to create an artificial signal delay, with the astronauts in orbit around the Earth, or even *on* the Earth. But there’s a snag with this.

Astronauts will orbit the Earth in about 90 minutes, and in those days, they could only communicate with Mission Control in Houston if they flew over tracking stations which were scattered around the Earth. Therefore, every 5 to 15 minutes or so, they’d have about 3 minutes of chat with Mission Control. The rest of the time they were out of line of sight with a tracking station.

By contrast, during the trips to and from the Moon, and while at the Moon, the astronauts talked to Mission Control through one of three tracking stations – California, Madrid and Canberra. These tracking stations are located at roughly 120 degree intervals around the Earth, and each was in contact with the astronauts continuously for about 8 hours at a time.

If the astronauts had been orbiting the Earth, there is no way a single tracking station could point its satellite dish at the spacecraft for 8 hours at a time.

And there’s a little bit of supporting evidence for this. At the tracking station near Canberra, they had a TV camera mounted on the dish, aligned with the dish. Therefore, on a TV screen they had an image of whatever the dish was pointed at. As a result, the staff at the tracking station knew their dish was pointed at the Moon, and was thus getting a signal from the Moon.

So, in summary, if the astronauts had been orbiting the Earth, or at a secret base on the Earth, an appropriate delay could be introduced into the signal, but there’s no way it could be beamed to one of the three tracking stations in such a way that the staff at the tracking station might be convinced that it had come from the Moon.

Another thought which comes to mind here is that when the astronauts were practicing landing the Lunar Module on the Moon, they did so in combined simulations with Mission Control staff. That is, the exercise was considered a good test for both the astronauts (in the physical act of landing the spacecraft) and for Mission Control (in monitoring the Lunar Module’s systems and advising and resolving problems). To make things as realistic as possible, the people who ran the simulations artificially created a 1.3 second delay. So as you can see, the delay could easily be created. But importantly, there are other factors which clearly separate the simulations from the missions, such as the involvement of the tracking stations in the missions.

As for the monitoring of the signals, I understand that the Jodrell Bank equipment in the UK, which was at the time the World's most powerful monitoring equipment, was not even directed towards the Apollo mission because it was not considered to be sufficiently important

Well, as I described above, NASA used three tracking stations around the world – located in the USA, Spain and Australia. Jodrell Bank has a powerful radio telescope, and it had played a part in earlier stages of the Space Race. But rather than saying it wasn’t sufficiently important, I’d say it wasn’t necessary to use it for the Apollo missions.

Can you tell me where it was described as “not sufficiently important”?

I hope this helps, but if you have any more questions, please ask.

[PeterB]

Jones said:

I know your question was not directed to me

So I’d appreciate it if you could keep out of the thread.

Nothing personal, I’d simply like to avoid distractions.

Cheers

[margamatix]

"Jodrell Bank informed the authors that there was "not the urgency, money or interest" in using their 250' dish to track Apollo 11 and then added that they could not get a wide enough bandwidth for receiving the LM on their other dish. In considering that this was one of humankind's supposed most important events, the authors had difficulty in believing this statement".


Source, Dark Moon

[PeterB]

Margamatix quoted from Dark Moon:

Jodrell Bank informed the authors that there was "not the urgency, money or interest" in using their 250' dish to track Apollo 11 and then added that they could not get a wide enough bandwidth for receiving the LM on their other dish. In considering that this was one of humankind's supposed most important events, the authors had difficulty in believing this statement.

Thanks for that.

As I mentioned in my previous post, NASA had already set up a network of three tracking stations around the world to track spacecraft heading to the Moon, at the Moon and returning from the Moon. Spacing the three tracking stations at roughly 120 degrees around the Earth meant that each tracking station could maintain contact for about 8 hours. More stations than that would add redundancy, but the stations were in any case quite reliable. And as the system had been set up before Apollo, that would explain the lack of interest or urgency. The lack of money is simply that while Apollo cost a lot, that didn’t mean that NASA could throw money wherever they wanted. Having set up the tracking system they thought they needed, Jodrell Bank’s assistance was unnecessary.

Now while this may seem surprising to the authors of Dark Moon, I can see why NASA might have made the decision they did.

Incidentally, a couple of years ago, the Dark Moon authors sent me an article called “On Eagles Wings” by an Australian guy called John Sarkissian. Sarkissian worked at the Parkes radio telescope, which assisted NASA during Apollo 11. The story’s also on the internet at www.parkes.atnf.csiro.au/apollo11/introduction.html and linked pages. It explains the background to the use of radio telescopes to receive TV signals, and also includes some information about NASA’s tracking station network. I highly recommend it for a read.

In the meantime, do you have any other thoughts or questions about the radio signals?

[rustylander]

You could have an empty craft with a relay signal in the approximity of the moon. You can get the 2.6 secs by having the astronauts who are on Earth or in approximation to it (in orbit) send their communications to the relay (taking 1.3 secs), then the signal coming from the relay back to Earth (the other 1.3 seconds) so anyone with the appropriate instruments (eg: ham radio operators) can pick it up and "confirm" it is where it should be but when Houston replies it goes directly to the astronauts via another signal. And there's your 2.6 seconds with the signal coming from where it is exepcted to be and an apparent communication with astronauts near or on the moon.

[margamatix]

peterb said:

In the meantime, do you have any other thoughts or questions about the radio signals?

Yes Peter,

Here's something that you may find of interest on this subject.

Go to 216.26.168.193/moonmovie/store.asp

The first item on the page is the video "A funny thing happened on the way to the moon". Don't worry, you don't have to buy it!

Click "video sample 2" and watch the short piece of footage.


This will explain how the delay was built in to the faked Apollo transmissions..

[PeterB]

Gday Margamatix

I watched the video clip 2 you suggested. The clip contained no explanation of how the delay was built in. I know that Bart Sibrel believes the footage was shot while in Earth orbit. But if his theory was correct, it fails to address another issue – where the dishes were pointed.

So I’d appreciate it if you could spell out in a little more detail what the video clip is intended to explain.

Cheers

[PeterB]

Rusty Lander

As you can see from a number of comments I've made in this thread, I'd like to restrict this thread to Margamatix and myself. I'll respond to your commments in another thread.

Cheers

[PeterB]

Okay, I’ve had another look at the video clip Margamatix linked, and I’m still baffled at what it was supposed to prove.

Let’s have a look at some of the possible scenarios and examine how the communications would work in each case.

1. It was pre-recorded. This allows you to include whatever you like in the script, and you can re-record as you need to correct perceived errors. The problem is that the astronauts and Mission Control discuss events which happened at the same time as the mission, and which would be nearly impossible to make happen according to the script (such as golf scores).

2. The astronauts were in Earth orbit or on the ground, and they spoke in real-time to Mission Control, with a faked delay. This gets around the problem above. But the problem here is that the tracking stations’ dishes were pointed continuously at the Moon while the astronauts were supposed to be there, and were continuously in communication with the astronauts for hours at a time. A spacecraft orbiting the Earth in the early 1970s was only in communication with Mission Control if it happened to be in line of sight of one of the many ground stations around the world. And the dishes of those ground stations had to move quickly to track a spacecraft which would move across the sky in a couple of minutes. There’s no way to fool the staff at the tracking stations into believing the astronauts were at the Moon if they were really on the Earth or orbiting it – they knew where their dishes were pointed.

3. The astronauts were in Earth orbit or on the ground, and their voices were relayed to an empty spacecraft orbiting the Moon, or on the Moon, then back to the Earth. This makes the signal appear from the right direction, but introduces another problem. Now, the signal delay will be twice as long as it should be, as the signal has to travel from the Earth to the Moon and back. Listen to the conversations between the astronauts and Mission Control, and you’ll hear conversations consistent with a 1.3 second delay, not a 2.6 second delay.

4. The astronauts were on the Moon. This explains everything – the discussion of current events, the dishes pointing at the Moon, and the length of the delay.

Margamatix, your sig this week may say that people in years to come will ask how we were ever fooled. But in order to make a Moon hoax work, you need to be able to explain these matters.

Cheers