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Post by Obviousman on Nov 20, 2005 1:54:52 GMT -4
Lunar,
I'd suggest that we draw this point to a close.
MM has been unable to demonstrate:
- that the suit could not protect a man on the surface of the moon;
- that the PLSS could not support a man on the surface of the moon; and
- that the LM could not contain the required consumables for all planned operation on the moon.
His opinion that having capability beyond that of which was required does NOT demonstrate that the PLSS could not function as required.
Let's give MM a chance to formulate his next point, prepare the necessary text, and check his references for accuracy.
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Post by Moon Man on Nov 20, 2005 1:59:04 GMT -4
The next issue is already complete. Lunarorbit does not want to post it until this thread is done. No one has address the radiation issue yet, and you do agree the suit was leaking, even if in a small amount. There may be a few other issues not dealt with yet, I'll have to go look.
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Post by tofu on Nov 20, 2005 2:07:56 GMT -4
No one has address the radiation issue yet What about these people: From Page 1: And if air was escaping them radaition was entering the suitNo. That's not how radiation works. From Page 2: And if air was escaping them radaition was entering the suit. First, what radiation? Second, the higher internal pressure of the suit prevents anything from entering. This is a technique often used to protect the atmosphere of one area from that of another. For instance, an occupied area may need to be protected from the possible infiltration of noxious gases from an adjoining area. Maintaining a positive pressure on the occupied area assures the air flow is always outward, thus nothing will enter. From Page 8: And bear in mind that if air was escaping then radaition was entering the suit.Totally illogial and wrong. Radiation and air act it totally different manners. Also you mention "as air leaks out, radiation gets in". Radiation doesn't behave like a gas. In toxic atmospheres, a positive pressure suit is used to ensure toxins don't enter the suit (matter flows from areas of greater pressure to areas of lesser pressure, not the other way around). But, again, radiation leakage in such areas doesn't apply. "The Radiation Issue" was addressed four times.
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Post by Moon Man on Nov 20, 2005 2:10:59 GMT -4
So, an ABer says so without providing proof and a sheep like yourself claims it's a fact, eh... Go back to sheep.
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Post by tofu on Nov 20, 2005 2:16:46 GMT -4
So, a hoax believer like you claims the radiation would seep in and I'm supposed to believe it, without any proof? As a reminder, you're a guy who thinks that on a sunny day, people don't cast shadows. I think I'll take the opinion of JayUtah over you. edit to add: by the way, check this out, you'll like it: www.army.dnd.ca/lf/English/2_0_26_1.asp?uSubSection=26&uSection=1It's the Canadian Army's Bison. I've actually seen these in action. They are bad-ass. Anyway, they are designed to protect the crew and passengers in the event of a nuclear attack. Guess how they do that? Before I tell you, you need to know that a big steel vehicle like this is pretty-much impossible to make air-tight. So you know what they do? They use what's called over pressure. That is, they pump in so much clean air, that it makes the pressure inside the vehicle greater than the pressure outside. There are no holes where radioactive particles can get in, because every hole has air blasting out of it. Pretty cool huh.
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Post by Obviousman on Nov 20, 2005 2:18:41 GMT -4
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Post by Van Rijn on Nov 20, 2005 2:37:15 GMT -4
So, an ABer says so without providing proof and a sheep like yourself claims it's a fact, eh... Well, this is another basic science issue. From what I've seen, you simply don't understand the concept of a vacuum. This isn't an environment suit to protect someone from a toxic or radioactive gas - it is to keep the oxygen in the suit. The lunar ionizing radiation is in the form of high energy particles from cosmic rays, the sun, and secondaries from the lunar surface. Joints and air pressure in the suit are irrelevent to this. The only real issue is total radiation exposure, which was monitored and well within safety limits.
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Post by Moon Man on Nov 20, 2005 2:44:09 GMT -4
All this states is that the radiation they experienced did not after the mission. I'll agree. Now please explain how the radiation they did experienced has never affected even one of the astronauts health after the mission..?
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Post by Van Rijn on Nov 20, 2005 2:57:18 GMT -4
All this states is that the radiation they experienced did not after the mission. I'll agree. Now please explain how the radiation they did experienced has never affected even one of the astronauts health after the mission..? That's funny. In a very quick read of that page I found this: [/li][li] set by the U.S. Atomic Energy Commission for workers who use radioactive materials in factories and institutions across the United States. Thus, radiation was not an operational problem during the Apollo Program. Doses received by the crewmen of Apollo missions 7 through 17 were small because no major solar-particle events occurred during those missions. One small event was detected by a radiation sensor outside the Apollo 12 spacecraft, but no increase in radiation dose to the crewmen inside the spacecraft was detected.[/quote] So, the radiation dose was well within the (rather conservative) limits for workers in the U.S. You do understand that everybody (including you) is exposed to radiation every day? Most of it from natural causes? Why aren't you showing signs from radiation exposure? The reason is that it takes a far greater dose to cause acute radiation poisoning.
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Post by tofu on Nov 20, 2005 2:57:45 GMT -4
Now please explain how the radiation they did experienced has never affected even one of the astronauts health after the mission..? What effect do you think we should have seen? Cancer? Why do you think they should have cancer? How much more radiation did the astronauts receive than I get when I have an x-ray? Don't you understand MM? You can't just say, "there was radiation, there should be effects." What you have to do is say, "the World Health Organization says X amount of radiation will cause cancer - here is a reference that shows that the astronauts took more than X radiation." Don't you get that? Why is that so hard? It's worthless to just say, "duh, I think this" You have to have some authority to back it up. It's not up to us to show you why they shouldn't have cancer - not until you offer some scientific medical study that might suggest they should have cancer.
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Bob B.
Bob the Excel Guru?
Posts: 3,072
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Post by Bob B. on Nov 20, 2005 3:19:12 GMT -4
No one has address the radiation issue yet What type of radiation are you talking about and how do you think it can get into the spacesuits? And if it can get in, why do you think it can in such quantity to be harmful? What quantity is harmful? Your claim is not believable.
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Post by Obviousman on Nov 20, 2005 3:24:55 GMT -4
This is the famous "No it is not" defence.
MM has not been able to show that the suits could not protect a man from radiation on the lunar surface - and just because you can't understand how this was achieved, MM, it doesn't mean you are right.
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Post by scooter on Nov 20, 2005 10:14:10 GMT -4
Moon Man, You state that since the suit was "leaking" (we're talking fractions of a cc of O2 per hour here), then radiation must also be leaking in. What kind of radiation? Rays? Particles? Radioactive gasses from the lunasphere? Were the leaky joints the entry points to contaminate the astronauts? I just want to make sure we have your counterpoint clearly understood. The 18 layer suit was quite robust and designed for the environment they encountered, as were the spacecraft. Dave
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Post by Retrograde on Nov 20, 2005 10:27:33 GMT -4
Go back to sheep. All these sheep about, and yet you are having trouble gathering a flock. Maybe you need to improve your sheparding technique...
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Post by lordoftherings on Nov 20, 2005 12:05:45 GMT -4
Moon Man, keep it cool.
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